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  • Security Tackles And Chokes Suject

    Saw this video and thought of everyone. I don't know about choking someone though.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=397_1187905672
    "If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
    - General George Patton Jr

  • #2
    That's not a chokeout. That's an LVNR. Some agencies put it at lethal force, some put it at active resistance.
    Some Kind of Commando Leader

    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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    • #3
      That is a legit hold. However, from what I understand agencies are getting away from tactics like the one shown here.

      Be safe,

      Hank
      " We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle, our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on one hand and of overwhelming force on the other" - General George C. Marshall

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      • #4
        If you screw up on an LVNR, you can crush the windpipe and cause death. The idea behind the LVNR is that you apply pressure to the sides of the neck, cutting off the blood supply.

        A proper LVNR will cut off blood supply, not air supply. Of course, applying one properly takes skill and practice, and it could be deadly if not applied correctly.
        Some Kind of Commando Leader

        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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        • #5
          If someone is choking you... are you able to use deadly force against them? If the answer is yes then it is a deadly force technique.

          I consider chokes deadly force and as a matter of fact, in my home state choking someone is now a felony.

          The problem with a choke hold is that if you are not skilled and experienced you can easily, mistakenly kill someone.

          The S/O in the video was obviously skilled at martial arts but not at proper S/O or LEO procedure.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by talon View Post
            If someone is choking you... are you able to use deadly force against them? If the answer is yes then it is a deadly force technique.

            I consider chokes deadly force and as a matter of fact, in my home state choking someone is now a felony.

            The problem with a choke hold is that if you are not skilled and experienced you can easily, mistakenly kill someone.

            The S/O in the video was obviously skilled at martial arts but not at proper S/O or LEO procedure.
            Now define choking.

            Originally posted by Google Define
            Definitions of choking on the Web:

            * a condition caused by blocking the airways to the lungs (as with food or swelling of the larynx)
            * the act of suffocating (someone) by constricting the windpipe; "no evidence that the choking was done by the accused"
            wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

            * In medical use, choking is the blocking of a person's trachea by a foreign object, vomitus, blood or other fluids. Choking is a medical emergency, as choking will prevent regular airflow.
            en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choking
            Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint, which is not a choke hold is a method of restraining by the neck which places pressure against the arteries, not the wind pipe.

            http://www.nletc.com/courses.php?course_id=1

            So, since choking is deadly force, what is LVNR, since LVNR is not choking someone?
            Some Kind of Commando Leader

            "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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            • #7
              Ok even if this was a choke hold. The suspect clearly says handcuff me. So there for there was no pressure being applied or the suspect wouldnt be able to speak.
              Robert
              Here endith the lesson

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              • #8
                Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
                Now define choking.



                Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint, which is not a choke hold is a method of restraining by the neck which places pressure against the arteries, not the wind pipe.

                http://www.nletc.com/courses.php?course_id=1

                So, since choking is deadly force, what is LVNR, since LVNR is not choking someone?
                Choking is the commonly understood term for both, and if someone is witnessing the encounter they will describe what you did as a choke, which is why I used that term.

                I would say that the definition of choke that would be used in court is: any hold around the neck area that would cause unconciousness or death either through loss of oxygen or blood supply.

                If the lateral restraint is allowed by law and policy for everyday use and the Officer's are certified in it, then have at it, But let me guarantee you that if you kill someone with a choke or other neck hold and it's not a deadly force situation you will "fry", and your employer and the state will hang you out to dry while they heat up the pan.

                I still say that it is a deadly force technique simply because if someone is choking you or has you in a lateral neck hold, you would be justified in using deadly force against them.

                Imagine you are in a dark alley and someone jumps up behind you and gets you in a textbook lateral neck restraint, you are armed with a pistol and in fear for your life, what would you do?

                A) Do your best to stop the mugger with your legal weapon, call the police and EMS, when the police arrive and ask you what happened, you say, "This mugger jumped out of the shadows and tried to kill me with a chokehold,so I defended myself".

                B) Do your best to stop the mugger with your legal weapon, call the police and EMS, when the police arrive and ask you what happened, you say, "this well trained mugger jumped out of the shadows and put me in a lateral neck restraint...but I wasn't worried, because I know that this technique is usually safe and would probably just render me unconcoious for a few minutes while the mugger made his getaway with my wallet my pistol and my house and car keys".

                Alot of young and or inexperienced officer's love to try out new techniques and toys and thats where the problems would occur...just be careful.
                Last edited by talon; 08-25-2007, 08:38 PM.

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                • #9
                  Call it what you will I thought that SO was great. Dam I just got in from an OT shift in the badlands and was inspired by that guy taking a bigger guy down in such a clean neat way. Most the action I see is hands and feet flying every where. Cheers to the guys in yellow.
                  THE AVERAGE RESPONSE TIME FOR A 911 CALL IS FOUR MINUTES
                  THE AVERAGE RESPONSE TIME FOR A .357 MAGNUM ROUND IS 1400 FEET PER SECOND?
                  http://www.boondocksaints.com/

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                  • #10
                    I think we are looking at this from the wrong perspective.

                    This isn't some dark alley, the suspect knew who he was running from, and who caught him.

                    I watched the video a few times and it seems his intention was to employ a Carotid Restraint, BUT the suject complied, practically instantly, and he merely held him in that postion. Neither applying to more force (pressure), or releasing his hold until the subject was properly detained.

                    Now the how and what of the little chase is vey unclear. I found it interesting that no one was screaming "let him go!" "Dont hurt him" OMG! What are you doing?!?!?!" Except, one lady who said to hand cuff him, as they were doing it...

                    Besides, if he was going for the Carotid Restraint, the bad guy wouldn't have had a chance to even get up. See here. The looser takes a cheap shot at the winer towards the end, and ref slaps a Carotid Restraint Hold on him. The looser goes down almost immediately.
                    ~Super Ninja Sniper~
                    Corbier's Commandos

                    Nemo me impune lacessit

                    Grammical and Spelling errors may occur form time to time. Yoov bin worned

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                    • #11
                      Haven't I read somewhere that putting pressure on both arteries at the same time can cause the heart to go into V Fib? (Any Paramedics out there?)
                      I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                      Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

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                      • #12
                        My analysis is that the "tackling" security officer, had some excelllent training. However, the other security officer needs to go back to training. He seemed pretty clueless as what to do. Not to mention getting ready to cuff this knucklehead, with hands in front. IMHO, if the other security officer knew what he was doing, this video could make for a pretty nice training video.

                        As Nathan pointed out, this technique has been taught in countless academies. In fact, this very technique has been used for getting a subject out of vehicle. However, it's not utilized as much like it use to (thanks to the Taser).
                        "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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                        • #13
                          I agree, the second officer there probably needs a little more training (and some better fitting pants). Officer 1 did a really good job getting initial control of his suspect, however, he should work on his escort technique a bit, that guy pulled away from him way too many times for my comfort.
                          "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
                          "The Curve" 1998

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                          • #14
                            Nice application of the LVNR by the security officer. However, I really hope no one here stands with their hands in their pockets and at their sides when making contact with a suspect. That's terrible officer presence and an officer safety issue. Your stance should be bladed and your hands should always be up in front of your chest and ready to fight if need be.

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                            • #15
                              See, now THAT'S what security should be like. Not someone who's looking to make easy money by filling out a uniform and eating Ho-Ho's all day. Took 'em down quick and clean. Bravo.
                              I do security for work; I run into burning buildings for fun

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