interesting article.

[talon]

http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070724/NEWS02/707240327/1007/news02

[talon]

I'm not following the logic from either side on this one...maybe I'm just slow.

[Lawson]

The stripping of the LE powers is silly IMO. They say they want focus on protecting the Space Center, not enforcing laws... how many times has there been an occurance where you would have been able to handle something better if you had some vested LE authority. I know for me, there has been more than enough times.

[talon]

You're preachin to the choir, I don't understand how they came to this conclusion. I mean you are going to take the arrest powers from the security but pay the sheriff to respond...somebody help me out here.

[Black Caesar]

A couple of scenarios come to mind, neither of them good:

#1. Some high up NASA lawyer is of the opinion that a contractor employed by a federal agency should not be enforcing non-federal law on a federal reservation. It's slightly overzealous thinking if you ask me, because even though the officers were contracted to the federal agency-

-A) they are still not federal employees

and

-B) the empowering agency (the Sheriff's office) is a local , not federal entity.

I've seen this kind of thinking up close, when the Federal Protective Service guys got a directive from GSA (FPS was part of GSA back then) telling them not to enforce state law at federal facitilies even though Texas law permits this.

(( for referance sake- art 2.122 (b) A person designated as a special policeman by the Federal Protective Services division of the General Services Administration under 40 U.S.C. Section 318 or 318d is not a peace officer but has the powers of arrest and search and seizure as to any offense under the laws of this state.))

Likewise the Dept of the Army restricts some of it's own civilian DoA police and contract S/Os because of posse commitatus, even though posse commitatus applys strictly to federal military forces (not forces under military command).

Iguess you could call it erring on the side of caution in all these cases, but I think it's a bit too catuious.
-

Scenarior #2 is I think more likely though, and it's mentioned in the article:

Last month, KSC officials directed security contractor Space Gateway Support to stop issuing the state citations to KSC workers.

They didn't say "stop issuing citations" they said "stop writing OUR people" (of course now Security can't really write up anyone except with those "admin tickets").

I've seen this personally too, and heard of it a lot from other Campus police officers. Employees complain about us writing them tickets they have to actually pay (lest the want a nice Deputy constable to come to the job and give them and nice ride to a un-nice place, which has happened), and trying to get out from under the preassure, college administrations would say "well, don't write our people".

Which is just as wrong (and illegal down here) as when usually smaller cities try to tell their cops to not write city residents or city government employees, only outsiders "so as to not piss anyone off".

But being contractors, the Security company in the article has no choice but to comply....

BUT, seeing NASA's attitude, maybe its a good thing that the Sheriff take directly over (and charge them out the wazzo, since fed reservations don't pay local taxes, atleady they don't in my state). That way the employees who bitched about security writing tickets will see the error of their ways, because Traffic deputies won't be as nice as KSC security was lol.

[Bill Warnock]

Black Caesar since that is federal land, I'd think 18USC13 would apply and magistrate tickets would be issued.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Black Caesar]

Black Caesar since that is federal land, I'd think 18USC13 would apply and magistrate tickets would be issued.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

Yea, there is really no reason why they wouldn't have their own police force, damn near every other Fed agency does it seems lol. A simple act of congress would allow for a NASA police/security department.

[talon]

Yea, there is really no reason why they wouldn't have their own police force, damn near every other Fed agency does it seems lol. A simple act of congress would allow for a NASA police/security department.

I think that this would be the solution.

[Bill Warnock]

Yea, there is really no reason why they wouldn't have their own police force, damn near every other Fed agency does it seems lol. A simple act of congress would allow for a NASA police/security department.

Black Caesar you don't have to be a sworn police officer to write a judge magistrate's ticket. Selected DOD guards on federal military installations issue them after specialized training. Military service police can write either Armed Forces Traffic or judge magistrate tickets.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[N. A. Corbier]

I think its more a matter of money and control. Look at a few federal installations, they all hire "security police" forces from Wackenhut Government Services or Aliuq or whoever is fronting for Wackenhut this year.

This way, if something bad happens, the government can shove responsibility off to Wackenhut. Like they do, by firing them and then having Aliuiq or whatever rehire Wackenhut as a subcontractor.

[N. A. Corbier]

Now that SGS security personnel are only Class D and G officers (they're armed, they're required to have a G), they are fully subject to FSS 493 and cannot detain criminals unless they have commited a felony or a breach of the peace.

Which means 90% of their crimes are un-detainable. Trespass? Not a felony or BOP in Florida. Simple assault? Nope.

Basically, they're O&R security now. This reminds me of the Navy Police bitching that they're being turned into security guards, as well.

[ValleyOne]

A simple act of congress

Now THAT'S sig worthy

[Black Caesar]

Now THAT'S sig worthy

Yea, I thought the same thing right after I wrote it .

[kingsman]

The federal government hires a lot of security officer from a lot of companies. I work at both a federal lab and at a Federal Courthouse. GSA property, and supervised by FPS.

What I can do at one site is not what I can do at another, it all depends on what the contract calls for. Mostly, we call the local PD for arrests, but we may detain people until they or FPS gets here.

[talon]

The federal government hires a lot of security officer from a lot of companies. I work at both a federal lab and at a Federal Courthouse. GSA property, and supervised by FPS.

What I can do at one site is not what I can do at another, it all depends on what the contract calls for. Mostly, we call the local PD for arrests, but we may detain people until they or FPS gets here.

Security always functions better and goes smoother when its officers can act under color of law. It cuts out all of the time consuming hassles of having to call another agency to handle small things like traffic or trespass. It is also cuts out all of the games that have to be played when some hard head says "I don't have to, call the "REAL police" and we will get this straightened out". If NASA doesnt want its security writing traffic tickets take the ticket book, but don't hang the officers out to dry and leave them vulnerable to the liability that comes from not having the power of the state at your back.