My Face is on Fire!!!!

I understand that people don't get shot or hit with batons during training, but it is a little bit like comparing apples and oranges.

EXACTLY!!! The spray does not have nearly the debilitating capability of baton or weapon.

still missing the point

Someone is finally getting where I'm coming from! There have been enough people that it has been done too & the effects have been studeied on them that every person who needs to use it on their job does not need to feel the effects first hand. IMHO

The point isn't to get sprayed so you know what it feels like and can adequately explain that in a court room. Even though that is probably a good thing in today's sue-happy society. The point is knowing how you will react with such a great burning sensation presented to you if it is deployed on you by accident or not. You cannot convince a reasonable person that you know how you will react without at least feeling the effects once.

..

How do you know that you will react the same way everytime you are sprayed?

In various training excercises and in real-life situations, I have been sprayed 7 times. I think that gives me a pretty firm grip on how I will react. I also was informed by my instructor that practicing with the particular brand you carry increases your ability to react in the same manner nearly every time. So we are all issued X2 MK-IV's.

[CorpSec]

I can see both sides, but I am glad that I got sprayed during training for the numerous reasons that have been listed in previous posts. I think the pros far outweigh the cons. I understand that people don't get shot or hit with batons during training, but it is a little bit like comparing apples and oranges.

[HotelSecurity]

Your humble opinion is a very ill-informed one, as I've already pointed out.

You should have added IMHO.

PS how come you quoted me as saying blah, blah, blah? Never did,

BTW I have been downwind when the riot sqaud has released tear gas & have been in a room of the hotel with the police when they used pepper spray that completely filled the small room.

[Mall Director]

A little food for thought..

Just some interesting facts to ponder:

- The human body's neurological system can register only up to 10,000 BTU heat ratings. OC can range from 5,000-50,000 BTU in heat rating. The "surplus" amount of BTU's found in the "above human registery" factor is not for additional, but duration.

- OC was not desinged for the percieved effect of "heat" when applied to the human body. Once you go through a quality certifying agency, you will understand that OC was designed to create the effect of *disorientation, *anxiety and *fear. This being said, any person who has not been trained properly, nor exposed to the agent, will fully understand the effects and mispercieve them to be the effects of pain, when there are more important factors that occurr during exposure.

- In proper and quality training courses, there are counter measures that are taught. The counter measures are given verbal, then through direct exposure, to ensure the student can succeed as well as put the "newly learned" skills to test and demonstrate competancy.

- There are several duties assigned to the carrier of the OC, that when a contamination occurrs to the carrier, the carrier must be able to complete any tasks afterwards with minimal difficulties. Direct exposure ensures that the newly certified carrier is capable of maintaining work and duty performance after the exposure, which by liability if the carrier is unable, an unsafe situation becomes more unsafe and unstable.

- Individuals who are exposed to chemicals on a daily basis, wears make-up may not react the same as those that are soft skinned, open sores, and so on. Direct exposure helps the individual student understand which type they are most likely, and to become aware of the types they may encounter.

There are a million reasons I could list all night long as to the importance of direct exposure, but the fact is that unless you have had the oppertunity to really understand what it is you are carrying, you really shouldnt be carrying it. For your safety and the safety of others. One of the most important things to consider is that even if you feel you are fully capable of handling yourself under exposure without previous experience, you are putting not only your safety at risk, but more importantly the safety of the person you just sprayed. The person you sprayed may not have the skills or the ability to remain calm and cooperative in such a situation, and if you are not 100% certain you can be, then that person has had their ability to operate normally taken away by you, and left to fend for themselves, which is what will put you behind bars! Be smart, get the proper and adaquate training out there, protect yourself, protect those around you, and go home safe and without fear of prosecution!

[LPGuy]

There have been enough people that it has been done too & the effects have been studeied on them that every person who needs to use it on their job does not need to feel the effects first hand. IMHO

Your humble opinion is a very ill-informed one, as I've already pointed out. You will feel the effects first hand if and when you spray someone! I don't know how I can spell this out any more clearly for you.

Do you really want that first exposure to be when you're trying to handcuff someone who is fighting with you?

[LPGuy]

Blah blah blah...

The simple fact of the matter is this: If you carry OC spray, at some point you will be exposed to it, either directly or indirectly through secondary exposure. If you ever spray someone, you will be receive secondary exposure, no matter how careful you are. If you want that first exposure to be in the field and during a fight for your life, then so be it.

There's a reason that I practice with all the weapons I'm issued (pistol, rifle, shotgun, Taser, baton, OC spray, and defensive tactics). That's so when I'm forced to use any of them in the field, I'm proficient and comfortable with them and know what will happen when I pull the trigger. In the middle of the fight is not the time to start learning the intricacies of your specific weapon.

To continue arguing against people voluntary being sprayed with OC is ridiculous and shows complete ignorance of the weapon. If there was a 0% chance of being exposed every single time I sprayed someone, then perhaps I wouldn't need to be sprayed in training. As I've said, however, you will be exposed, and in the field is not the time for it to be your first.

[HotelSecurity]

Thanks to dedicated people like that Sgt. the rest of us don't have to go through repeated exposures to be sure.

Someone is finally getting where I'm coming from! There have been enough people that it has been done too & the effects have been studeied on them that every person who needs to use it on their job does not need to feel the effects first hand. IMHO

[Charger]

How do you know that you will react the same way everytime you are sprayed?

For the most part, the way it affects a person doesn't change over time. The PD Sgt. who did that study I posted earlier in the thread has been sprayed probably well over 400 times by now. (Estimating, as he was at like 350ish last time I spoke with him a few years back) He said the effects haven't changed on him one bit.

I know where you're trying to go with that argument, that the effects could be different in a training scenario vs. real life. Although the SITUATION may be different, the effects on your body will be pretty consistent, depending on whether or not you're sprayed directly or get secondary exposure.. (Walk through a cloud, etc.) Thanks to dedicated people like that Sgt. the rest of us don't have to go through repeated exposures to be sure.

[HotelSecurity]

3. For those who oppose being sprayed, how do you know if you will be able to continue fighting, possibly for your life, if sprayed in the line of duty?

How do you know that you will react the same way everytime you are sprayed?

No

it doesn't mean you would have to quit. I certainly would not want to work with a guard who could not act after being sprayed though. For someone like me with mild athsma, it can cause some pretty serious side effects, but it is generally harmless. I just know that I would have to try my darndest to keep out of the line of a direct spray again. A few other things:

1. I noticed that someone mentioned liability about being sprayed. It is totally the company/guard's decision now. This is due to a case in Louisiana in which a state trooper was sprayed at incredibly close range with an over-pressure can. It caused permanent irreversible eye damage.

2. Another reason the 'getting shot with your own gun blah, blah, blah...' argument is pretty much irrelevant. Retention holsters work. Pepper spray is different in the fact that they do not make retention holsters (at least that I've seen) for them. It is very easy for anyone to remove your spray and use it against you.

3. For those who oppose being sprayed, how do you know if you will be able to continue fighting, possibly for your life, if sprayed in the line of duty?

[HotelSecurity]

I have a questioon. So, you let yourselves get sprayed in the face with this stuff "to know how you would react if it actually happened". If you find that you can not function after being sprayed, does it mean you have to quit security work?

[Mall Director]

I bet that all you guys that absoultly insist that you have to be sprayed with pepper spray before you are allowed to carry it also believe that we have to test shapmpoos etc in animals eyes!!

Hotel Ol' Chap... My only response to a point of that nature, is that the animals dont get to have a say, nor do they use shampoo on their own accord.

We as the higher-archey of the animal kingdom, developed the spray, and use it on our own accord with a say in its development and deployment.

I in no way condone animal testing, but how it relates to OC carry I am not fully understanding.

Ohh.. I do use shampoo in my eyes.. Johnsons and Johnsons, right after getting hosed!

wow

I bet that all you guys that absoultly insist that you have to be sprayed with pepper spray before you are allowed to carry it also believe that we have to test shapmpoos etc in animals eyes!!

1. I have never "absoultly" done anything.

2. I don't know about our neighbors to the north, but animal testing is largely non-existent now. At least that is what I read.

3. I bet those who say they know how they will react without getting sprayed are full of sh*t.

4. I am confident that I could spray any one of you who says they don't need to be sprayed and you would be incapacitated to the point of being "combat ineffective", for lack of a better term, and unable to safely continue doing your job. Example: If you were attempting to arrest me and I sprayed you with your own can, you would cover your face and panic and then have your weapon taken away and be handcuffed with your own gear. Don't believe me. Come try it. I have experience on my side.