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  • #46
    Now that we have wandered way off track..LOL!

    I think somewhere something I may have said may have misconstrude.. That being the "firearm" issue.. Which I regret ever bringing up.. LOL!

    I want to make sure I clearly state "do not go getting shot by a firearm to understand the effects". That's not anywhere near my point, but the point of having to train with it being the ground factor of a tool used to protect.

    As for the OC, and why it is important to be "Directly Exposed", is not an issue of who is and is not a "bad arse".. I could care less, though some of my peeps enjoyed taking it in the face with X2 repeatedly (as I will not!).

    Look at Tazers.. In order to certify with them, you have to be "shot" with one. Same with OC by federal standards.

    I have been to court, and can thank my certifier (Armorholding) for allowing me to be "Directly Exposed", as I got to testify in court after one of my people sprayed a criminal offender. The defense's tactic went down the pooper after I got up and stated that everyone in my department has been exposed to it directly as per required by our standard. The Defense wanted to try the "inhumane" approach of their defense. But its hard to claim that it is "inhumane" if the person that sprayed you, has been sprayed before as part of their job requirement.

    Defense Attorney: So Officer XX, you sprayed my defendant with OC, correct?
    You: Yes sir, I did. It was necessary to bring a bad situation to an end.
    Defense Attorney: So, tell me then, why would you use such a device against my client being that it is very painful?
    You: Well sir, You defendant was violent, and I was in fear of my health or being harmed.
    Defense Attorney: Well then Officer XX, how do you know that what you used is not going to create an unacceptable amount of pain, that is more torture then defensive?
    Now you have a few answers to give:
    You: Well sir, the label says its safe to use.
    Defense Attorney: Didnt they say the same about esbestos in the 50's?
    OR
    You: Well sir, I hear its safe.
    Defense Attorney: How do you know then for a fact it is safe to use?
    OR
    You: Well sir, there have been no related deaths, and it is 100% humane and safe.
    Defense Attorney: How do you know this for a fact then Officer XX?
    You: Because per job requirements I am required to be directly exposed to the same thing I used in my defense!


    As for the "complete" understanding of how OC works.. You really dont get the full picture until you have been exposed. I highly recommend everyone who carries OC be directly exposed atleast once. Another story about me...

    As part of the Army's training, you go to their "gas chamber". This is filled with CN (tear gas) as part of the training to rely on your gas mask. I went through this several times, and got used to the effects, which wore off pretty quickly once you get away from it. Aside from the snot dripping issue. Well, figuring that I had been through something like this before, when it came time for me to go and certify as an Instructor, I thought to myself that this would be cake, as I have been through a gas agent before, and "thought" I would know how to respond.. I was rudely awakened on that! OMG, the effects at first did nothing, then it all came crumbling down. After the 5th station I was to go to and "combat" a subject, I began to become very disoriented. I wasnt looking anywhere really, and was trying to get my eyes to work right, with no luck. When it was all said and done, I was highly annoyed with the fact I couldnt work my way through as fast as I wanted. It taught me alot. On the second direct dose, we were instructed how to work through it, and to use countering measures. Now the heat and pain were still there but my time was alot faster, and I didnt loose sight of my objective.

    I was one of those that didnt see the point to being hit with OC, until I did, then I understood alot more, and ate humble cake.

    For those that are carrying, that have yet to experience this.. I soooooo strongly encourage it. It will back you up in court, allow you to work better around it, even when it gets on you from struglling with a non-cooperative subject, and teaches you more then just "hearing" about it.

    I also suggest that if you use a fogger agent, you take time to go through that as well. Its great for parking lot fights, and you can really clean up a mess if you can "breeze" through it!
    Deputy Sheriff

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    • #47
      Originally posted by OccamsRazor View Post

      I don't get it Frank...You work on an armed federal contract and don't have OC?
      Yup! That's right! Given the choice, I would rather carry OC instead of the baton, but we are stuck in the 1950's. Wheelguns and batons. If you plucked Wyatt Earp out of the past, he could easily identify everything I carry on me belt, except for the flashlight, maybe.

      My company and the government officials who enforce the contract are somewhat strict about the tools we use. Don't get me started about that!

      Having said that, I have carried OC for at least ten years in the past. I was first certified with it in the early 90's, and have recertified with it several times with different employers and trainers. No one was sprayed in any of those classes. The liability issues and the union grievances about being sprayed were discussed.

      I don't know, maybe it's a regional thing. Different attitudes in different parts of the country/world. I know most administrators in my area (public and private) are very liability-conscious.

      As I said before, I am sure most of you who were sprayed in training are proud to have gone through the experience, and probably have less respect for those of us who have not. While I am willing to keep an open mind about it, I am still not convinced that you must be sprayed with OC in order to be qualified to carry it. Some of you have put forth some good arguments on the subject, on both sides.

      I wish I did carry OC in my present situation, because it leaves a big gap in my force spectrum. Maybe someday things will change for us.


      -- Frank
      Tommy Boy: "I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's a$&, but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it. "

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by FrankW438 View Post
        ...As I said before, I am sure most of you who were sprayed in training are proud to have gone through the experience, and probably have less respect for those of us who have not. While I am willing to keep an open mind about it, I am still not convinced that you must be sprayed with OC in order to be qualified to carry it. Some of you have put forth some good arguments on the subject, on both sides.
        Please don't misunderstand me Frank. I'm not "proud" to have been sprayed, nor do I have any less respect for someone who carries it but hasn't. (Like most of the OC-carrying public, for example.. lol)

        I look at it this way:

        You go to the store, buy a can of OC to defend yourself. You read the directions, (aka, point at attacker's face, press button.. lol), and feel confident you can use it. Can you? Probably. It's not like pushing a button is rocket science or anything, after all. But imagine someone jumps out of the bushes one night and attacks you. You pull the OC, spray it, and the wind blows it right back in your face. Having never been through it before, you're not going to have any way of knowing if it's just going to sting you a little and make your eyes tear up a bit, or if you'll get the full range of effects that slam your eyes shut and cause excruciating pain... I (Personally) would rather know in advance that if something like that happens, I'm gonna be in a world of hurt and would need to find some means of escape.

        It all boils down to a basic human reaction:

        You're already in a high-stress situation.. (Being attacked)
        You have a basic hope for 'relief'.. (The expectation that the OC will subdue the attacker and "save" you)
        If that expectation suddenly and unexpectedly backfires and subdues YOU instead, your first reaction as a human being, will more than likely be to PANIC.. And THAT is where things can get very nasty, and very dangerous for you... If you've been exposed to the OC before, your chances of survival are a bit better because you're a (slight) bit less likely to panic, and can hopefully find some means of continuing the fight or at least escaping..

        As I said before, I'm not meaning to rant here, and it's not a question of respect or "macho"ism... It's about Officer Safety, and making sure we all go home safe at the end of every shift.
        Corbier's Commandos - "Stickin it to the ninjas!"
        Originally posted by ValleyOne
        BANG, next thing you know Bob's your Uncle and this Sgt is seemingly out on his a$$.
        Shoulda called in sick.
        Be safe!

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Charger View Post
          I look at it this way:

          You go to the store, buy a can of OC to defend yourself. You read the directions, (aka, point at attacker's face, press button.. lol), and feel confident you can use it. Can you? Probably. It's not like pushing a button is rocket science or anything, after all.
          Maybe I wasn't clear. I didn't just go to the store, buy the stuff and slap it on my belt. I was trained by certified instructors, passed tests and was given certificates. Most of these training sessions were conducted by state-certified law enforcement instructors.

          I haven't needed to use OC on anyone myself, but I have assisted in arrests where it has been used. I have seen officers accidentally sprayed by their fellow officers. You know what? They survived the incident and made the arrest. I know they weren't sprayed in training, either.

          You're implying that anyone who hasn't been sprayed in training is going to panic if there is an accident, and end up as a lump of meat by the roadside due to a training deficiency. This just isn`t the case.
          Tommy Boy: "I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's a$&, but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it. "

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by FrankW438 View Post
            Maybe I wasn't clear. I didn't just go to the store, buy the stuff and slap it on my belt. I was trained by certified instructors, passed tests and was given certificates. Most of these training sessions were conducted by state-certified law enforcement instructors.

            I haven't needed to use OC on anyone myself, but I have assisted in arrests where it has been used. I have seen officers accidentally sprayed by their fellow officers. You know what? They survived the incident and made the arrest. I know they weren't sprayed in training, either.

            You're implying that anyone who hasn't been sprayed in training is going to panic if there is an accident, and end up as a lump of meat by the roadside due to a training deficiency. This just isn`t the case.
            I am not saying that a person would end up as a lump of meat if they havent been exposed to it before. But one thing that none of us have covered yet, which a very key point in all of this, is that in training, as we all have heard..

            OC has an effective result when deployed, yet each person is different, and how they respond to being exposed may vary. A person who has a life long exposure to make-up may respond differently then that of a make-upless person, and an intoxicated person may respond differently then that of a sober person. We each are different when it comes to our responses to exposure.

            Being exposed is a very important key in training. Yes, you may respond without hinderance to the agent, while the person next to you may not. It is fortunate that the incident you had been involved in had a positive result from the OC contamination, sadly this is not always the case with every incident.

            As with most training we all have had, the scenerio derives from "worse case" and then leaves you with "what do you do?". We may never end up in the absolute worse case scenerio, which we are all thankfull for. But the what if's is what keeps us on top of being defeated or things going wrong.

            I agree that none of us need to be shot with a firearm to understand the results. Yes, we dont need to, but if you look at most state of the art training facilities, there are simulators. Simulators provide as much realism as possible and apply the highest level of stress. Why? We know our own individual threshhold, and gain confidence out of it. If we fail we learn from it with minimal consequences.

            I for one, have had the luxury of some real awesome training. I have been put through the ringer quite a few times. Having been in the military, you are exposed to a gas chamber. When will the enemy use CS to fight you? Probably never, but that was not the point. The point was to rely onyour equipment and work through a difficult situation. Then to go off and train train train with simulators and "realistic" training methods, I thought at the time it was pointless. Until the day I deployed to the middle east for the invasion. After all was said and done, I swore I would never discredit the hard training that I went through, as I am standing here today.

            Going through the OC instructor course and being exposed to the OC myself several times, I realized I can work through it. It wasnt the same stuff I had previousely been accustomed to. What amazed me is when one of the PD officers who was attending, bragged about being tough and skeptical to OC and its results. When it was his turn to be exposed, he stepped up and made of alot of "cavemenistic" noises and psyched himself up. He was hit with the OC, and a few seconds later the instructor of the course and another PD officer had to go chase him down as he ran around the compound screaming.

            I learned some things about me and others going through it. If I could go through the certificatino process of being an instructor with out the exposure, now looking back, I wouldnt. There are just some real neat things that occurr that cant be put into words about what we learn!
            Deputy Sheriff

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by FrankW438 View Post
              You're implying that anyone who hasn't been sprayed in training is going to panic if there is an accident, and end up as a lump of meat by the roadside due to a training deficiency. This just isn`t the case.
              I'm not implying that anyone, or everyone will panic... Simply that SOME people might. Having prior experience lessens that chance slightly, and in a dangerous situation, every little bit of advantage you can get is a good thing.

              As MD mentioned, some people DO panic when they're hit with it. And that was DURING his training, not during a real life high-stress situation. Hopefully if that officer ever has a bad situation with OC out in the field he can handle it better, having been through it before.
              Corbier's Commandos - "Stickin it to the ninjas!"
              Originally posted by ValleyOne
              BANG, next thing you know Bob's your Uncle and this Sgt is seemingly out on his a$$.
              Shoulda called in sick.
              Be safe!

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Charger View Post
                I'm not implying that anyone, or everyone will panic... Simply that SOME people might. Having prior experience lessens that chance slightly, and in a dangerous situation, every little bit of advantage you can get is a good thing.

                As MD mentioned, some people DO panic when they're hit with it. And that was DURING his training, not during a real life high-stress situation. Hopefully if that officer ever has a bad situation with OC out in the field he can handle it better, having been through it before.
                I'll just be the 3rd Echo, since Charger and MD said it all already.

                This career field(s) (protective services is what I call it, because no matter public of private, we all get paid to protect something or someone) isn't one where it's a good idea to think you know what will happen. "Err on the side of extreme almost paranoid caution" should be tattooed on the forehead of everyone protective service worker from minimum wage/entry level security and police officers and volunteer firefighters to Secret Service Agents in my opinion. Not knowing for sure how you will react to an accidental or intentional OC exposure is not erring on the side of caution.

                Because no one panicked (or had a bad reaction or had a weapon taken or died ect ect) in the past is really real,y bad justification for any position one could take.

                I've seen people do some pretty stupid things (like racing trains to the crossing, something of a "hick sport" around here when I was growing up) and live, does that mean I want to try it? Heck naw. I don't want to be the 1st "example" of why a certain action is stupid.
                Last edited by Black Caesar; 07-29-2007, 08:09 AM.
                ~Black Caesar~
                Corbier's Commandos

                " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

                Comment


                • #53
                  Okay. I hoped you guys wouldn't force me to use the argument, but you asked for it!

                  Tommy Boy: I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's a$%, but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it.
                  Don't make me use the Monty Python on you. That stuff can be downright lethal.
                  Tommy Boy: "I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's a$&, but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it. "

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by FrankW438 View Post
                    Don't make me use the Monty Python on you. That stuff can be downright lethal.
                    Ahh, but if you come back we'll taunt you a second time!
                    Corbier's Commandos - "Stickin it to the ninjas!"
                    Originally posted by ValleyOne
                    BANG, next thing you know Bob's your Uncle and this Sgt is seemingly out on his a$$.
                    Shoulda called in sick.
                    Be safe!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by HotelSecurity
                      I still do not see the difference in spraying someone in training so they will know how they will react than shooting them in the leg so they will know how they will react.
                      A common anti-spray argument.

                      I think my defensive tactics instructor in the police academy said it best: "If I was able to shoot you so you'd know what it's like, I would."

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        ...

                        90+ people who get shot in the LOWER leg or arm dies. See I did not know that. Maybe I need to be shot to see how I react

                        BTW as children did your parents actually put your hand on the burner of the stove to teach you not to touch
                        Didn't mention where they were shot. Good job though. If your training has taught you to shoot in the leg, I pray that I never come within 100 miles of you doing your job. Any intelligent human could see that I was referring to shots fired as we are taught to fire them.

                        And the burner thing just proves ignorance. You get sprayed with pepper spray SO YOU KNOW HOW YOU WILL REACT. Anyone who has not been sprayed cannot say with any certainty how they will react if a subject manages to get their can or if their partner accidentally sprays them or whatever the case may be. I will bet you $100 that you will not react as you think you will if you hav enot been sprayed. Want proof? Come on down and I hose ya and see how you react*.

                        *Not a threat in any way. This is for all those who think they can determine how they will react without feeling the spray.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          ok

                          That is a load of crap. I would really like to see a real statistic for that. You are more likely to survive a GSW than to die from it. I don't think it's the news you've been watching, I think its Terminator.

                          No, not quite a load of crap. The way I have been trained (and all of y'all should have) is that you shoot for center mass. If I nail you with a .45 ACP center mass at and reasonable distance for a security guard, you will be very dead. I guess I should have written that post in crayon for y'all.

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                          • #58
                            I bet that all you guys that absoultly insist that you have to be sprayed with pepper spray before you are allowed to carry it also believe that we have to test shapmpoos etc in animals eyes!!
                            I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                            Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              wow

                              I bet that all you guys that absoultly insist that you have to be sprayed with pepper spray before you are allowed to carry it also believe that we have to test shapmpoos etc in animals eyes!!
                              1. I have never "absoultly" done anything.

                              2. I don't know about our neighbors to the north, but animal testing is largely non-existent now. At least that is what I read.

                              3. I bet those who say they know how they will react without getting sprayed are full of sh*t.

                              4. I am confident that I could spray any one of you who says they don't need to be sprayed and you would be incapacitated to the point of being "combat ineffective", for lack of a better term, and unable to safely continue doing your job. Example: If you were attempting to arrest me and I sprayed you with your own can, you would cover your face and panic and then have your weapon taken away and be handcuffed with your own gear. Don't believe me. Come try it. I have experience on my side.
                              Last edited by doulos Christou; 08-04-2007, 09:50 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by HotelSecurity View Post
                                I bet that all you guys that absoultly insist that you have to be sprayed with pepper spray before you are allowed to carry it also believe that we have to test shapmpoos etc in animals eyes!!
                                Hotel Ol' Chap... My only response to a point of that nature, is that the animals dont get to have a say, nor do they use shampoo on their own accord.

                                We as the higher-archey of the animal kingdom, developed the spray, and use it on our own accord with a say in its development and deployment.

                                I in no way condone animal testing, but how it relates to OC carry I am not fully understanding.

                                Ohh.. I do use shampoo in my eyes.. Johnsons and Johnsons, right after getting hosed!
                                Deputy Sheriff

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