My Face is on Fire!!!!

[Black Caesar]

wow, I just read the rest of this thread. Ouch, not good.

Anyone who carrys a FIREARM should have to take the hit whether they carry OC or not. Thats why we did it in the Police Academy, and why it was taped, so in the future if someone assaulted us with OC we'd have video evidence of the devastating effects it had on us, and a justification for why we would then use deadly force against someone....even though they assaulted us with a "less lethal" weapon.

Because cops (and armed S/Os) carry guns, being incapactiated and less able to protect and retain your weapon is not an option, period. Every fight is a gun fight.
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I also see people talking about getting shot. The stupidest fallacy ever is when people go "couldn't you just shoot them in the leg?".

Now, for a A simple physiology lesson. Getting shot in an extremity can kill you.

Get shot in the lower arm (or any extremity), and if the bullet breaks a bone, bone shards can enter your blood stream and cause you to have a stoke.

Cut the Femoral Artery in the leg or the anterior interosseous artery of the lower arm (or the Brachial Artery in the upper arm) and you could litterally bleed to death before anyone could help you. An arm or leg hit is less fatal, but not UNfatal.

Shooting at someone is ALWAYS deadly force, period.

[HotelSecurity]

wow, I just read the rest of this thread. Ouch, not good.

Anyone who carrys a FIREARM should have to take the hit whether they carry OC or not. Thats why we did it in the Police Academy, and why it was taped, so in the future if someone assaulted us with OC we'd have video evidence of the devastating effects it had on us, and a justification for why we would then use deadly force against someone....even though they assaulted us with a "less lethal" weapon.

Because cops (and armed S/Os) carry guns, being incapactiated and less able to protect and retain your weapon is not an option, period. Every fight is a gun fight.
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I also see people talking about getting shot. The stu-pidest fallacy ever is when people go "couldn't you just shoot them in the leg?".

Now, for a A simple physiology lesson. Getting shot in an extremity can kill you.

Get shot in the lower arm (or any extremity), and if the bullet breaks a bone, bone shards can enter your blood stream and cause you to have a stoke.

Cut the Femoral Artery in the leg or the anterior interosseous artery of the lower arm (or the Brachial Artery in the upper arm) and you could litterally bleed to death before anyone could help you. An arm or leg hit is less fatal, but not UNfatal.

Shooting at someone is ALWAYS deadly force, period.

And a person who has been pepper sprayed can wander into traffic & get hit by a car. Again I ask, do you have to burn the child to teach him not to touch something that is hot?

[Black Caesar]

And a person who has been pepper sprayed can wander into traffic & get hit by a car. Again I ask, do you have to burn the child to teach him not to touch something that is hot?

That doesn't make any sense at all. What are you trying to say? did you read what I wrote?

[SEO_09]

I would like to thank those who have contributed to my question. I have also recently found that liquid dish detergent dabbed on the effected areas draws out the oil, and breaks it down. speeds up recovery time.

[Lawson]

we all know how a gun will affect the average person. In 90+% of shootings, somebody dies.

That is a load of crap. I would really like to see a real statistic for that. You are more likely to survive a GSW than to die from it. I don't think it's the news you've been watching, I think its Terminator.

And a person who has been pepper sprayed can wander into traffic & get hit by a car. Again I ask, do you have to burn the child to teach him not to touch something that is hot?

Umm... That makes no sense to the argument... If I get OC sprayed in the field, I am probably less likely to wander into traffic because I now know how to work through it.

When I was a child and I touched a hot iron, I learned never to touch a hot iron again.

[HotelSecurity]

That is a load of crap. I would really like to see a real statistic for that. You are more likely to survive a GSW than to die from it. I don't think it's the news you've been watching, I think its Terminator.




Umm... That makes no sense to the argument... If I get OC sprayed in the field, I am probably less likely to wander into traffic because I now know how to work through it.

When I was a child and I touched a hot iron, I learned never to touch a hot iron again.

My point about the person who was pepper sprayed getting killed in traffic was not about a security officer doing so but a suspect. A statement had been made saying that most shootings were fatal. I was pointing out that pepper spraying someone could also be fatal.

As for you having to touch the hot iron to learn not to touch it your parents did not force you to touch it to learn not to touch it. I believe I would not have to be pepper sprayed to know how I would react.

[Chucky]

It's not a fetish. He did it specifically so that he COULD be considered an expert witness on the subject of OC.. He routinely gets called to testify across the country on cases where someone claims "That PD Officer sprayed me with OC and now I'm blind!".. He comes in, gives his testimony with his experiences to back it up, case gets dismissed... He didn't do it for fun, he did it for his fellow officers.

I understand that but am stuck on why he had to be sprayed 400+ times. Had he sprayed that many students over his career it would make sense. And the fact that none of them went blind IMO should seal the deal. Does he have any real medical proof that he has not done any nerve damage to his face or eyes?
How does he being sprayed that much prove that he hasn't built up an immunity or that the plaintiffs are not subject to the effects. Even Judge Lance Ito wouldn't consider anyone that reckless with his own health as a credibile expert. (Maybe he would)

[Lawson]

I was pointing out that pepper spraying someone could also be fatal.

The problem is, that scenario is completely beside the point. What if you didnt spray him but shouted, "Security! Stop!", he ran out into traffic and got hit? Then would you say verbal commands could be fatal?

If you shoot someone with a gun, it is fatal because a bullet passes through them and causes damage. Not because they got shot and fell backwards into the street and ran over by a city bus.

What people are trying to say is, spraying someone isnt going to kill them... but getting hit by a car might, but thats just too far out there to connect the two.

[HotelSecurity]

What people are trying to say is, spraying someone isnt going to kill them... but getting hit by a car might, but thats just too far out there to connect the two.

Is pepper spray a NON leathal weapon or a LESS leathal weapon?

[Lawson]

I never said it's a non lethal weapon. Everything is less-lethal. Hell, running is less-lethal, but that doesn't mean you shouldnt do it. I would venture to say more people die from exercise equipment every year than OC spray. And I have NEVER heard of a training death related to OC.

[OccamsRazor]

I don't get it Frank...You work on an armed federal contract and don't have OC?

And my personal $.02. I've been sprayed for training a LOT more than I'd like, and it truly saved my a$$ on the street as a cop when my partner missed a suspect and nailed me in the face. If I hadn't already been through it and knew it wasn't going to kill me, I may have frozen up (like I did the first time in training). With the (non-sprayed) suspect trying his damndest to grab my gun, I'm glad I didn't freeze up.

Until you've been subjected to the cruel god, OC, you won't know how you're going to react.

Period.

I've seen guys who talked big and bad, who told anyone who would listen that they should'nt have to be sprayed, as they knew they could fight their way through the effects, go down like a ton of bricks when the spray hit them.

[Black Caesar]

I don't get it Frank...You work on an armed federal contract and don't have OC?

And my personal $.02. I've been sprayed for training a LOT more than I'd like, and it truly saved my a$$ on the street as a cop when my partner missed a suspect and nailed me in the face. If I hadn't already been through it and knew it wasn't going to kill me, I may have frozen up (like I did the first time in training). With the (non-sprayed) suspect trying his damndest to grab my gun, I'm glad I didn't freeze up.

Until you've been subjected to the cruel god, OC, you won't know how you're going to react.

Period.

I've seen guys who talked big and bad, who told anyone who would listen that they should'nt have to be sprayed, as they knew they could fight their way through the effects, go down like a ton of bricks when the spray hit them.

ROFL, we had a guy like that in the Academy. Second youngest guy in the class (had just turned 21), former construction worker, big talker who liked to show off his Battle (ie "I'm the Dumbarse who got too close to the boiling hot tar") scars. We called him Billy Badass, and his real 1st name wasn't even Billy (or bill, or william or anyhting close . The fact that he always breezed through defensive tactics training earned him some respect ..........

.......until that day when he folded like an Origami Cat after getting sprayed...

. The single most memorable thing I ever heard in the Academy was the instructor telling him "Hey Cadet, 'balled up on the floor in the fetal posistion' is not a defensive tactic". That guy never ever lived that one down .
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But back on topic, what you said. In the field is NO PLACE for "I think I know how I'd react if I got sprayed". You have to know and you have to train for it, because if you do ever catch any blow back, the only thing you might have left to save your life is your ability to fall back on your training.

[Charger]

I understand that but am stuck on why he had to be sprayed 400+ times. Had he sprayed that many students over his career it would make sense. And the fact that none of them went blind IMO should seal the deal. Does he have any real medical proof that he has not done any nerve damage to his face or eyes?
How does he being sprayed that much prove that he hasn't built up an immunity or that the plaintiffs are not subject to the effects. Even Judge Lance Ito wouldn't consider anyone that reckless with his own health as a credibile expert. (Maybe he would)

LOL!!

You may be misunderstanding what I said.. It's not that he was sprayed 400+ times in a row or anything... That's a cumulative total over the years... In addition to being sprayed during the classes he teaches, he also gets sprayed from time to time for the sake of that ON-GOING study that I linked to earlier. He continually goes back to the SAME doctors/medical team to get checked & re-checked for any signs of injury.

The point isn't whether he's built up an 'immunity' or not.. (the idea of building up an immunity to OC is debatable anyway).. It's to show that even under a steady regimen of OC exposure, there's no long-term damage or effects. So the idea that getting hit ONCE could cause any lasting damage is unrealistic. THAT is the point of his study, and the reason for his 'fetish' as you put it.

[Mall Director]

I carry the 10% foam per site policy and have never had to deploy it, although some coworkers have. We are not required to spray in order to carry.

I always assumed that someone would be instantly hurting once I spray them but from what I understand from one of Mall Director's posts, it takes a bit for the subject to start hurting.

Does anyone know how long its going to take to really hurt an average person to full effect? From this information I guess a good thing to do would be to give them a squirt then step back until you think they are hurting enough to move in and cuff them, unless they try to run away.

Ohh, as for the 10% pepper Foam.. Very good stuff, except in a breezey location, you kinda have to use "kentucky windage" with anything over 4 foot.

Average full effect 2-4 seconds.. Intoxicated subject: 10-15 seconds. Nice thing about foam, when it doesnt work completely on a subject, the blinding agent keeps them from finding you!

We use Def-Tec 10% Foam, and it has worked quite well, along with the X2. Figure effects last hard for about an hour with the foam. The X2 is very disorienting and lasts even longer.

[Mall Director]

Is pepper spray a NON leathal weapon or a LESS leathal weapon?

Depends on what you go by... DOJ's "Use of Force Continuum" states Oc is a Soft hand technique. Meaning, that it is along the use of Verbal. Then comes hard physical (impact weapons, PPCT), then deadly.

But each state follows their own prescribed regulations set by their judicial community.