My Face is on Fire!!!!

[Charger]

The fact is that peppery spray CAN cause permanent soft tissue damage and has caused several deaths in the past. If your training didn't include those tidbits, you need to get your money back.

Completely BOGUS statement. Present some proof, and I'll consider listening to this point of view. Otherwise, I would direct your attention to the following study, done by a nationally recognized OC expert:

http://www.opt.pacificu.edu/ce/catal...SD/pepper.html (I believe this is an abridged version, as I remember the original being MUCH longer)

The PD Sgt who worked on this, was the person who trained me on OC. Last time I spoke with him (almost 4 years ago now) he had been sprayed almost 400 times. I'm sure the number is much higher by now. If anyone would have tissue damage from OC, it would be him.. lol

Now I'll get off MY soapbox.

[Mall Director]

Completely BOGUS statement. Present some proof, and I'll consider listening to this point of view. Otherwise, I would direct your attention to the following study, done by a nationally recognized OC expert:

http://www.opt.pacificu.edu/ce/catal...SD/pepper.html (I believe this is an abridged version, as I remember the original being MUCH longer)

The PD Sgt who worked on this, was the person who trained me on OC. Last time I spoke with him (almost 4 years ago now) he had been sprayed almost 400 times. I'm sure the number is much higher by now. If anyone would have tissue damage from OC, it would be him.. lol

Now I'll get off MY soapbox.

I must agree with you 100%... There have been 0 related in custody deaths, as published by the Dept. of Justice, in relation to the use of OC.

There are no long term side effects, nor permanant damages caused by OC. Oleoresin Capsicum is a seed oil.

If you happen to use a synthetic based solvent, such as Mace, CN or CS, then you have a minimal probability of eye damage, but that is less then .005%.

Now, take for example, Def-Tec or Sabre Red products, they both carry liability insurance. They are also 100% Food grade products (as regulated per the Food and Drug Administration) and meet all Environmental Protection Agency federal codes. These products have been clinically tested and approved by the FBI since 1992!

OC causing permanant damage is a myth!

[Chucky]

The PD Sgt who worked on this, was the person who trained me on OC. Last time I spoke with him (almost 4 years ago now) he had been sprayed almost 400 times. I'm sure the number is much higher by now. If anyone would have tissue damage from OC, it would be him.. lol

Now I'll get off MY soapbox.

I have been reading the pros and cons of this subject and found points by both sides but when I came to this guy taking it in the face 400+ times I was speechless. What was he trying to prove after the first one or 5 times? IMHO anyone that would subject himself to that many times without 100% total proof that at some time in the future his macho foolishness wouldn't come back to haunt him. Asbestos to Asbestosis's comes to mind.

[HospitalPatrol]

I carry the 10% foam per site policy and have never had to deploy it, although some coworkers have. We are not required to spray in order to carry.

I always assumed that someone would be instantly hurting once I spray them but from what I understand from one of Mall Director's posts, it takes a bit for the subject to start hurting.

Does anyone know how long its going to take to really hurt an average person to full effect? From this information I guess a good thing to do would be to give them a squirt then step back until you think they are hurting enough to move in and cuff them, unless they try to run away.

[HotelSecurity]

I'm putting on a bullet resistant vest for the responses but I still do not see the difference in spraying someone in training so they will know how they will react than shooting them in the leg so they will know how they will react. To me it's more of a macho thing. Start shooing

[LPGuy]

I have been reading the pros and cons of this subject and found points by both sides but when I came to this guy taking it in the face 400+ times I was speechless. What was he trying to prove after the first one or 5 times?

More than likely, he's an OC instructor who takes a spray during each training session.

Does anyone know how long its going to take to really hurt an average person to full effect? From this information I guess a good thing to do would be to give them a squirt then step back until you think they are hurting enough to move in and cuff them, unless they try to run away.

The average person will probably feel the effects within 2-3 seconds. Keep in mind that OC spray is not like a Taser, and the average person will not fall to the ground, incapacitated and in a prone cuffing position for you. Many people are going to fight you even with their diminished vision and breathing. Hopefully you have been trained in some defensive tactics and ground fighting because you may have to engage that person and get contaminated yourself in the process.

Also, continue giving verbal commands and let the suspect know that you'll spray them again unless they stop resisting.

[Guest]

Ok

Alright, bringing up up the gun thing is kinda silly. First, we all know how a gun will affect the average person. In 90+% of shootings, somebody dies. We all know that, if you don't, turn on the news. Second, you have options to help you avoid deploying a firearm, hence the OC, ASP, etc. It is a LAST RESORT. That is what all legitimate firearms training teaches. I did not need to be shot to know that a .45 caliber round could penetrate dang near through my head and never slow down. I did, however, need to be sprayed by OC in order to understand how someone with my pain tolerance and athsma would be affected. It is very important. As far as I have seen, they do not make a double-retention holster for spray, so knwoing how to tolerate the full brunt of its power is very beneficial to those of us who have a higher chance of being involved in physical altercations. For those who talk about death by OC, MACE brand products, not OC, were the ones that were killing people. I have no details or anything, I just remember hearing about it. Don't bite my head off, I will find a webpage or something later on, too busy right now. As a sidenote, sudecon, etc are useless in my experience. Milk works very well, drink it...you will inhale OC and your mouth and throat WILL be on fire. Also, I learned from my SGT that tortillas and sliced cheese can also draw out more of the pepper used than almost anything. Sounds ridiculous, but I tried it and even offered it to some of the subjects I have had to spray; it worked well. Aside from that, avoid sweating or excessive water. The last thing us men want is activated OC touring the 'more sensitive' regions or our bodies, it is oil-based.

[Chucky]

More than likely, he's an OC instructor who takes a spray during each training session.

I considered that he might be but after the first couple of times it would seem likely that he would know how it feels. Just sounds a little excessive. Unless he likes it. Oh No! not another fetish.

[HotelSecurity]

Alright, bringing up up the gun thing is kinda silly. First, we all know how a gun will affect the average person. In 90+% of shootings, somebody dies. .

90+ people who get shot in the LOWER leg or arm dies. See I did not know that. Maybe I need to be shot to see how I react

BTW as children did your parents actually put your hand on the burner of the stove to teach you not to touch it?

[Charger]

I considered that he might be but after the first couple of times it would seem likely that he would know how it feels. Just sounds a little excessive. Unless he likes it. Oh No! not another fetish.

It's not a fetish. He did it specifically so that he COULD be considered an expert witness on the subject of OC.. He routinely gets called to testify across the country on cases where someone claims "That PD Officer sprayed me with OC and now I'm blind!".. He comes in, gives his testimony with his experiences to back it up, case gets dismissed... He didn't do it for fun, he did it for his fellow officers.

[Charger]

I'm putting on a bullet resistant vest for the responses but I still do not see the difference in spraying someone in training so they will know how they will react than shooting them in the leg so they will know how they will react. To me it's more of a macho thing. Start shooing

LOL... You won't need your vest with me.. (Goggles maybe, though. lol)

I'm curious, do you carry OC on duty? And if so, have you EVER been sprayed with it?

I for one am GLAD that I got sprayed during my training, BEFORE I had to deploy it in a stressful situation. Having the 'been there, done that' behind me, so to speak, I knew going in that if the wind blew wrong, or the suspect managed to throw it back at me, I was going to be in trouble because it affects me a LOT... I'm not trying to say that the training saved my life or anything, but it IS helpful to know whether you'll be able to continue fighting or not if things go south. It's not about being macho, it's about knowing your own limits.

As others have said, you don't NEED to be shot to know what a gun will do. With OC, the range of effect varies greatly from one person to the next, so it IS important to know what you personally can and can't do under it's effects. (EDIT: Not to mention, having the knowledge that it may or may NOT affect your suspect the way you want/expect it to!)

Hopefully I didn't come across too harshly in this thread with anybody... It's just that OC is one of my fortes, being an instructor.. So I tend to get a bit defensive when someone speaks poorly of it.. lol (I'm sure Mall Director knows how this goes... )

[FrankW438]

I'm putting on a bullet resistant vest for the responses but I still do not see the difference in spraying someone in training so they will know how they will react than shooting them in the leg so they will know how they will react. To me it's more of a macho thing. Start shooing

Don't worry, HotelSecurity, I've got your back. And so does the US Court of Appeals when the ruled in favor of corrections officers in NC who challenged this training requirement.

Read this:

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/6416/smith-ok.html

-- Frank

[Charger]

Does anyone know how long its going to take to really hurt an average person to full effect? From this information I guess a good thing to do would be to give them a squirt then step back until you think they are hurting enough to move in and cuff them, unless they try to run away.

Whether you get sprayed or not during your OC training/certification aside.. You SHOULD have been given at least some tactical training on HOW to deploy it properly to minimize the chances of your attacker getting to you.

I won't give you the whole seminar here in this forum, (cause it would take way too long.. lol), but a good rule of thumb is the same type of deployment you would use with a firearm... Shoot & move. Not just backwards, mind you, but away and to the SIDE. (This way if the guy is running/charging at you, he's less likely to connect with you) Keep the spray up and aimed at him, keep ordering him down, but be prepared to spray again if he charges again.

Once you've got him down and compliant, I personally recommend counting to at LEAST 15 (seconds) before trying to move in and cuff him. This lets the OC floating in the air around him dissipate a bit so you're less likely to walk into an OC cloud unexpectedly. (This happens a LOT... In the heat of the moment a lot of officers forget about the lingering cloud, and charge up to cuff the guy before they should)

As I said, this is a very quick and basic idea of deployment. Your training should have covered this and much, much more. If it didn't, I highly recommend looking into a better OC class if you're going to continue to carry.

[Charger]

Don't worry, HotelSecurity, I've got your back. And so does the US Court of Appeals when the ruled in favor of corrections officers in NC who challenged this training requirement.

No offense, but how often do the Justices on the CoA go out and work on the streets as LEOs? Or even as corrections officers, for that matter? Just because politicians see it as a bad thing, doesn't mean squat in the real world.

I only hope those COs in NC never try to deploy it and get incapacitated during a fight..

[Black Caesar]

I always found placing my face in front of a fan was the best way to overcome the effects.

the 1st time I got sprayed I was in the police academy. We took the hit and then a helper would take us into the showers. I managed to screw my eyelids shuit right before the hit and I'm like "oh nthis is not so bad"....

...Then after 15 minutes in the shower I tried to open my eyes. Ouch, it was like getting licked by Satan after he ater some hotwings and peppers. water andf soap were useless.

A few minutes later they took us out of the showers and walk our blind butts back to the gym floor. On the way this gust of air (coming off the lake) hit us through an open door. Because of the pressure differances the wind was really howling.

It was the best damn feeling any of us ever had. My whole class fought each other for the door way and the saving winds lol.

When I caught some OC on duty a few years back, all I did was go to my vehicle at the 1st oppurtunity and blast the AC at my face. It really helps.