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  • My Face is on Fire!!!!

    I just got done with my OC training. My face is burning like the sun just touched it. But other than that it was pretty uneventful. I was wondering if any of you out there that carried OC carry the DECON wipes with you.
    Keeping the parking lots safe, hallways moving and the Chik Fil A busy.

  • #2
    I dont carry any form of Decon stuff. From what I hear they are about as effective as pouring sand on your face.
    "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
    "The Curve" 1998

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    • #3
      I have heard that some of the wipes can reduce the recovery time by a period of time, but there is not a magic wipe that will take away the pain right away.

      I always found placing my face in front of a fan was the best way to overcome the effects.

      Comment


      • #4
        I can't believe they still make you do that! I thought the lawsuits by the unions put an end to that barbaric practice a few years ago!

        Do you really need to be sprayed with OC to know what it feels like? Did you have to be hit with an Asp (not the padded training baton) in order to carry your baton? Do you have to be shot with a handgun in order to be qualified to carry one? It's just stupid and mean.

        I think that a couple of sadistic instructors were sitting around telling war stories about the teargas chamber they use in military basic training. That is still cruel, but it serves a purpose. In the military, they are teaching you how to use your gas mask properly and the dire consequences of not getting it put on correctly.

        Spraying a student with OC for training purposes is pretty close to criminal assault, if you ask me.

        I'm sorry, I didn't mean to take the soapbox here. I guess I had a little pent-up ranting I needed to unleash.


        -- Frank
        Tommy Boy: "I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's a$&, but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it. "

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        • #5
          Originally posted by CorpSec View Post
          I have heard that some of the wipes can reduce the recovery time by a period of time, but there is not a magic wipe that will take away the pain right away.
          There is, after a fashion, but it's not always available. It's called snow

          Trust me on this one...Been there, done that.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by FrankW438 View Post
            I can't believe they still make you do that! I thought the lawsuits by the unions put an end to that barbaric practice a few years ago!

            Do you really need to be sprayed with OC to know what it feels like? Did you have to be hit with an Asp (not the padded training baton) in order to carry your baton? Do you have to be shot with a handgun in order to be qualified to carry one? It's just stupid and mean.

            I think that a couple of sadistic instructors were sitting around telling war stories about the teargas chamber they use in military basic training. That is still cruel, but it serves a purpose. In the military, they are teaching you how to use your gas mask properly and the dire consequences of not getting it put on correctly.

            Spraying a student with OC for training purposes is pretty close to criminal assault, if you ask me.

            I'm sorry, I didn't mean to take the soapbox here. I guess I had a little pent-up ranting I needed to unleash.


            -- Frank
            I am glad I was sprayed with OC... I didnt know how I would react to it, and now Im glad I do. There are so many different human responses to OC spray that it is imperative you be sprayed so you can understand what it's going to be like. If someone happens to spray you or you spray an area, you now know what you are likely to experience, rather than being exposed to OC for the first time while trying to handle a barfight. I came damn near incapacitation when I was sprayed, I never realized how hard it was going to be to breathe, other people in our sprayings could have eaten the spray.

            The whole, "I didnt have to get shot" argument is age-old, and is silly. OC is not going to cause any long term effects like getting shot will... duh. You are much more likely to use OC than your gun as well.

            Being exposed to OC if you're going to carry it is imperative.
            "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
            "The Curve" 1998

            Comment


            • #7
              Being sprayed actuallly helped me. I had been sprayed in training and knew how to react to it and work through it when i was sprayed in the street. It enabled me to continue to fight and take the suspect in custody because i knew what to expect. So it does serve a purpose.
              Robert
              Here endith the lesson

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              • #8
                Originally posted by FrankW438 View Post
                I can't believe they still make you do that! I thought the lawsuits by the unions put an end to that barbaric practice a few years ago!

                Do you really need to be sprayed with OC to know what it feels like? Did you have to be hit with an Asp (not the padded training baton) in order to carry your baton? Do you have to be shot with a handgun in order to be qualified to carry one? It's just stupid and mean.

                I think that a couple of sadistic instructors were sitting around telling war stories about the teargas chamber they use in military basic training. That is still cruel, but it serves a purpose. In the military, they are teaching you how to use your gas mask properly and the dire consequences of not getting it put on correctly.

                Spraying a student with OC for training purposes is pretty close to criminal assault, if you ask me.

                I'm sorry, I didn't mean to take the soapbox here. I guess I had a little pent-up ranting I needed to unleash.


                -- Frank
                I agree 110& with you & have stated so in pervious posts on this subject.

                The Montreal Fire Department gives courses on how to use fire extinguishers by hotel staff etc. They used to set a really smoky fire in their smoke house & let VOLUNTEERS go through to see what it was like in a real fire. Unions complained to Workmen's Compensation & now they use theatrical smoke which lets you see the visability problems in a fire but does not force your eyes closed like real smoke.
                I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I think this is one of those "rites of passage." The mentality is, "If I had to go through this, you should have to, also." I am absolutely sure that each one of you who had to take a dose of OC are proud of your experience and feel confident that you will know conduct yourselves if you get sprayed with it in the future. I wonder if, to a small extent, you resent or think less of those of us who were not required to be sprayed with it.

                  The fact is that peppery spray CAN cause permanent soft tissue damage and has caused several deaths in the past. If your training didn't include those tidbits, you need to get your money back.

                  You do not have to be sprayed with the stuff in order to know how it works! My training involved an environmental exposure. Our instructor hosed down a target and we had to spend a time in close proximity (inches) to it so we'd know what our exposure would be like when we used it on a suspect we were arresting. That's reallistic training and doesn't inflict unnecessary pain.


                  -- Frank
                  Last edited by FrankW438; 07-23-2007, 02:59 AM. Reason: Editted for S&G. S%!ts and Giggles? No, Spelling and Grammar!
                  Tommy Boy: "I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's a$&, but I'd rather take a butcher's word for it. "

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I know it's an extreme example but; I don't have get shot to know it 1) hurts and 2) if I have the right mind set I can not only survive I can continue to fight AND WIN.
                    ~Super Ninja Sniper~
                    Corbier's Commandos

                    Nemo me impune lacessit

                    Grammical and Spelling errors may occur form time to time. Yoov bin worned

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I personally have mixed emotions on getting sprayed. I got sprayed twice in training and must admit that I am glad I did. I know how I will react to it. I don't mind getting sprayed for the exposure aspect. What I do not agree with is instructors spraying you and then making you "fight". Anyway, concerning the original topic I would not waste your money on the so called decon wipes (i.e. sudecon). I have heard nothing but negative feedback from instructors and users alike. My recommendation is to use Johnson's Baby Shampoo or milk. Baby shampoo is mild enough that you can get it in your eyes and the active ingredient will neutrulize the OC. Milk is the same way. By the way look at the active ingredient in those so called decon wipes and you will notice they contain baby shampoo. Why pay all that money when you can buy a huge bottle of baby shampoo for a couple of bucks.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        At my recruit camp in the army reserve we need to pass without a gas mask in piece full of cs gas

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by FrankW438 View Post
                          I am absolutely sure that each one of you who had to take a dose of OC are proud of your experience and feel confident that you will know conduct yourselves if you get sprayed with it in the future.
                          I'm struggling to find the problem in having confidence that I know how to conduct myself.

                          Originally posted by FrankW438
                          The fact is that peppery spray CAN cause permanent soft tissue damage and has caused several deaths in the past.
                          Keep reading up on "peppery spray." Perhaps it can, and I'm not willing to attempt to test that theory on myself, but most studies I know of point to OC spray being generally harmless. The most recent extensive research done on OC spray that I know of was from the the Association for Research in Vision and Ophthalmology, Inc. in 2000. The conclusion of their study, "Effects of Oleoresin Capsicum Pepper Spray on Human Corneal Morphology and Sensitivity" was:

                          Originally posted by FrankW438
                          CONCLUSIONS. Although OC causes immediate changes in mechanical and chemical sensitivity that may persist for a week, a single exposure to OC appears harmless to corneal tissues.
                          Originally posted by FrankW438
                          You do not have to be sprayed with the stuff in order to know how it works!
                          An interesting assessment, coming from someone who hasn't been sprayed.

                          Originally posted by FrankW438
                          My training involved an environmental exposure. Our instructor hosed down a target and we had to spend a time in close proximity (inches) to it so we'd know what our exposure would be like when we used it on a suspect we were arresting. That's reallistic training and doesn't inflict unnecessary pain.
                          No, that's not very realistic training. Has your training prepared you to take a shot of OC to the face when your partner misses the suspect you're wrestling with? Or what about when the guy who you just sprayed decides to close the distance with you and do some ground fighting? Are you prepared for the effects of the OC when it's rubbed all of your face, clothes, and body?

                          The answer is, likely, no. Standing next to some OC for "exposure training" means you breathed a little bit of OC. The effect of OC on your lungs is its most minor effect. I suspect that if you ever take an intense bit of OC during a real fight, you're going to receive a very big shock when it affects your eyes, skin, and mental state much more differently than you anticipated. Unfortunately, you could also end up very hurt or dead.
                          Last edited by LPGuy; 07-23-2007, 03:56 AM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Michael Ledgerwood View Post
                            What I do not agree with is instructors spraying you and then making you "fight".
                            This goes back to realistic training. If you get full exposure to OC during a fight out in the field, there will be no bucket of water and baby shampoo ready and waiting for your immediate decontamination. If you're the only officer on scene, you will still need to take that suspect you just sprayed into custody, and that may equate to a ground fight and/or continued pursuit.

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                            • #15
                              From a Nationally Certified OC Instructor..

                              OK.. Baby shampoo works very well (johnsons and johnsons) but to make the heat go away quicker.. Let it dry and as fast as possible, such as with the use of fans!

                              As for why are there the requirements for exposure? Its not a rights of passage thing, LOL...

                              1) You need to understand fully the effects of the OC, as well as the actual time it takes to take effect. It is not immediate, unlike a firearm where when you pull the trigger the subject is instantly effected. OC take a few to get hot and working. If you are exposed to it yourself, you understand the delay, which helps in "subject recovery". You OC your subject, and if you did not fully understand how OC works, you would attempt to take custody immediately after OC deployment, when it actually take a moment of time. By fully understanding how long it takes to take effect, you delay attempting to try and assume custody until it has taken effect..

                              2) When you were exposed, I am sure there were a series of tasks set for you to complete after being exposed. This is to teach you to work through "contamination". When you go to deploy your OC, there may be a chance that you will get it on you. Now take an example of a combative subject, who once you spray (or team work it) you become exposed directly or second hand to the OC. You need to be able to finish the assumption of control. If you have never been exposed to OC in training, you will not know your limits and physical response when effected. If you are not familiar first hand previous to the incident, you may not function safely, and be able to control a situation you brought to the next level by using OC.

                              Its very important that a person is exposed to OC during training. I wouldnt have it any other way. During my Instructor Cert, I was exposed to 4 varieties of OC, with a series of tasks to complete, on top of taking the written test while under the effects. This helps you to learn to complete your duties and stay functional regardless.

                              A couple months ago, while discussing operational matters with two of my senior sergeants out in the mall, a very large gentleman approached me and my two sergeants. The male subject was shy of 6ft, but physically built like a tank. The male was very hostile and upset. He started off with yelling and screaming at me, something to the effects of why his son was arrested earlier that evening by my staff. Even though I was not sure who he was talking about, I attempted to verbally de-escilate the male subject. Each time I was asked a question, and started to answer, I was interrupted and yelled at even more. After realizing that nothing I said would calm this male, I attempted to advise him that he needed to leave, as he was drawing the teenage crowd of a Friday night, and scarying many. The male subject "expressed" his intent to not depart, and that he was entitled to remain in his state of mind. After three more advisements that he was trespassing and would be arrested if he did not leave, he refused with responses of what I could do with myself. His actions became more physically threatening as he continued to approach me, after I advised him to stay away from me. The male subject made it very appearant that he was going to cause me harm in his threats and physical actions. For the last time, I stepped back, gave a final warning. When he continued to advance, I signalled to my sergeants. He observed this signal, turned to them, and started to aggress them. With a single verbal warning, and failure to comply, a bright orange stream of a foamy substance went flying through the air and into the male subjects face. Immediately following, the subject grabbed his face, turned around and bolted out the doors. He ran for another 50ft, until he stopped to try to wipe his eyes. The two sergeants followed and attempted to restrain the male when it appeared the effects of the OC were working. The male was extremely combative even under the effects. A second series of OC was deployed when both sergeants on each side were being thrown around like dolls. Unfortunately, with a sergeant on opposite sides of the male, both opened a deployment of OC, which crossed over (and on) the subject, and struck both sergeants. Now, I had a total of 3 individuals who were exposed directly to OC. After another short burst of a struggle, and the male subject throwing the sergeants off of him and fleeing another 75ft, the male was finally restrainted and brought to first aid.

                              The point to my story, is that both of these veteran supervisors had an incident that was not working in their favor. Both were directly hit with OC. One was struck with 10% Foam, while the other was hit with X2. Both OC agents were powerful and caused severe heat infliction. Had these supervisors not been exposed to OC in training, imagine the results of 2 people who never knew what it would be like to be hit with OC, trying to handle a very large and combative subject?

                              An old military saying that holds true... Fight like you train, and train like you fight!
                              If you are ever curious, look back in the archives here in the "Gear, Equipment" section for my OC write up. I discussed training, had a video posted of our training, and did an examination of several different brands!
                              Deputy Sheriff

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