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  • Riot Gear ?

    I have heard and have talked with a few other security officers at some of the properties here, and the discussion of should security be allowed to use roit gear as come up alot, my opinion is yes because if your tasked with protecting employees of a building and there are roiters outside, you need to be able to push the crowds away from the building and/or use a roit sheild to protect the employees if you have to evac your building durning a roit.. whats your take ?
    Its not how we die that counts.....
    Its not how we lived that counts....
    all that matters is how we saved that one life that one time by being in the right place at the right time....

  • #2
    Originally posted by UtahProtectionForce View Post
    I have heard and have talked with a few other security officers at some of the properties here, and the discussion of should security be allowed to use roit gear as come up alot, my opinion is yes because if your tasked with protecting employees of a building and there are roiters outside, you need to be able to push the crowds away from the building and/or use a roit sheild to protect the employees if you have to evac your building durning a roit.. whats your take ?
    Does your employer send SO's to crowd/riot control courses? There are a lot of "do not's" in controlling a crowd/riot. My humble opinion is, there is a police force trained and paid to maintain the peace. SO's job is Security on an assigned property.

    Once off the property said SO has no authority and is fair game to a roudy crowd. Ever see what a crowd can do to a single person they don't agree with?

    I appreciate your desire to protect building employees but a few SO's can do only so much. There is a matter of cooperation of those you are trying to protect.

    I realize your situation is hypathetical but I don't understand evacuating employees into the riot situation. I would think they would be safe 'inside' the building untill the crowd was under control and/or disbursed. Unless, of course, the building is on fire or falling down.

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    • #3
      If you have rioters outside your assigned property, you call the police.
      "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by UtahProtectionForce View Post
        I have heard and have talked with a few other security officers at some of the properties here, and the discussion of should security be allowed to use roit gear as come up alot, my opinion is yes because if your tasked with protecting employees of a building and there are roiters outside, you need to be able to push the crowds away from the building and/or use a roit sheild to protect the employees if you have to evac your building durning a roit.. whats your take ?
        I haven't been to a good Roit in a long time. Do they serve chicken?
        Retail Security Consultant / Expert Witness
        Co-Author - Effective Security Management 6th Edition

        Contributor to Retail Crime, Security and Loss Prevention: An Encyclopedic Reference

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        • #5
          With the above (anyone wearing riot gear should be trained in civil disorder operations) reminder...

          Unless your state has a law preventing (such as Florida does) the training or execution of "para-military training operations," there should be no problem purchasing "riot gear."

          Riot "suits" are simply padding. Hatch's Centurion system is basically similar to ... baseball catcher's safety gear. The 36" riot baton is no different in the eyes of the law (unless your state is odd, verify the state's weapon statutes) to any other stick, club, or billie.

          Owning a 37mm grenade launcher and some types of 37mm rounds is easy. No ATF paperwork is required, and its seen as a signaling device by the NFA of 1968. If you only load smoke, gas, or flare rounds, then it is not a "destructive device."

          Of course, the second you shoot a round at property or a human, it becomes a destructive device and if you don't have your DD tax stamp for the launcher, plus each round, you're a federal felon. Solution? 200 dollar DD tax stamp + ATF Form 4 for the 40mm or 37mm launcher, DD tax stamp for each round (At 200 dollars a pop, the tax is to discourage Joe SixPack from owning weapons of war.)

          Now, all that said, one can own it, but why? The average security officer is not deployed to riot situations. Those that are, are usually trained in civil disorder operations.
          Some Kind of Commando Leader

          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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          • #6
            You could always use what the master himself uses http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwxIC5fu7fY

            Or for hall pass violators: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNHgCLihcjM
            ATTN. SPECOPS AND GECKO45 my secret username is CIDDECEP and I am your S2. My authorization code is Six Wun Quebec Oscar Fife. Your presence here is tactically dangerous and compromises our overall mission parameter. Cease and desist all activity on this board. Our “enemies” are deft at computer hacking and may trace you back to our primary locale. You have forced me to compromise my situation to protect your vulnerable flank. This issue will be addressed later.

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            • #7
              To see why security and riots don't mix all you need to do is google the Seattle WTO Riots. Why would any secuirty officer want to subject themselves to that much liability and lawsuits? Its bad enough that the PDs who are sworn to protect us get sued over these. I'll let the Sworn LEOS deal with rioters. The only equipement a secuirty officer might need would be a gas mask capable of filtering OC and CN/CS gasses. And that should only be used for EVAC anyways. Other than that no point in getting involved.

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              • #8
                At Wackenhut, we had Riot teams. We almost got a protest/riot contract, but our area manager didnt want to take the contract since they wanted armed officers and for some reason he was anti-gun. ( A former NYSP trooper too.)

                While I was on the GRT, I could have potentially gone to riots all over the country, but we never got called up. One of the trainers at our Company told of us one he went to where there was a line that looked like:

                "Deputy, National Guardsman, TWC CPO, Deputy, National Guardsman, TWC CPO, Deputy, National Guardsman, TWC CPO... etc..."
                "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
                "The Curve" 1998

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                • #9
                  Keep in mind, there is a difference between a political protest and a full blown riot. A political protest, such as the WTO problems, introduces the additional problems of political agitators and video cameras.

                  A riot, such as the Los Angeles Riots of the 1990s or the St. Petersburg Riots have no political agitators, and its just "people rioting." They're out to destroy life and property.

                  During a full blow riot, security companies will likely need to deploy additional forces to protect some properties from rioters. If memory serves, a chain of grocery stores on contact with a former employer required the security firm to deploy large amounts of armed employees during the St. Petersburg riots at a few stores.

                  When the grocery stores asked the police for assistance, the police told them that they were on their own, police forces were busy attempting to route the rioters elsewhere. That's when they called their security company up and went, "We need more people, there are very angry rioters outside throwing Molotov cocktails at our doors."

                  Between large amounts of Aerko OC/CS grenades and a strong uniformed presence, the rioters went somewhere else.
                  Some Kind of Commando Leader

                  "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
                    Keep in mind, there is a difference between a political protest and a full blown riot. A political protest, such as the WTO problems, introduces the additional problems of political agitators and video cameras.

                    A riot, such as the Los Angeles Riots of the 1990s or the St. Petersburg Riots have no political agitators, and its just "people rioting." They're out to destroy life and property.

                    During a full blow riot, security companies will likely need to deploy additional forces to protect some properties from rioters. If memory serves, a chain of grocery stores on contact with a former employer required the security firm to deploy large amounts of armed employees during the St. Petersburg riots at a few stores.

                    When the grocery stores asked the police for assistance, the police told them that they were on their own, police forces were busy attempting to route the rioters elsewhere. That's when they called their security company up and went, "We need more people, there are very angry rioters outside throwing Molotov cocktails at our doors."

                    Between large amounts of Aerko OC/CS grenades and a strong uniformed presence, the rioters went somewhere else.

                    exactally why i possed the question, i was working for a company once and thier employees union was going on strike, they believed it would be an angry crowd so htey had stated they MAY need roit control officers....


                    but anyhow... like nathan said when the police are busy on full blown riots, they will not have the time to respond, many states have emergency laws stating that durning states of emergency marshall law is in effect, because police are too busy dealing with other incidents...
                    Its not how we die that counts.....
                    Its not how we lived that counts....
                    all that matters is how we saved that one life that one time by being in the right place at the right time....

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      If Martial law is declared, you will most likely not be patrolling anything. Florida only permits law enforcement officers to possess a gun during a "civil emergency" or martial law situation. That means its illegal to be armed, even if you have a license, during a hurricane.
                      Some Kind of Commando Leader

                      "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Speaking as someone who was on a riot team, let me say I would not want to see any security present at a riot. You are opening yourself up for way too much liability. You can give the argument that "its our property and we will protect it." However, considering that most security are wannabes, it won't take long until they start wandering over to "help" the LEOs. I don't want that liability.

                        There is no difference between a "full blown riot" or a political one. A riot is a riot regardless of the cause. The Seattle WTO riots were not started by WTO protestors. They were started by a group of punks who wanted to stir up trouble and the protestors got caught up in it. It is the same whether a riot is start by striking workers or sports fans or two political ideas clashing. To be face to face in a riot situation is extremely dangerous and frightening. There are clear procedures and commands in place that the LEOs know and security won't know. This will severly limit the effetiveness of the sworn LEOs trying to calm the disturbance. Not only that, but anyone who works security knows just how much respect we get. Considering that rioters are attacking sworn LEOs they sure won't listen to a mere security guard.

                        In my opinion, if you are a security guard and you wish to create a "riot team" you better have lawsuit insurance and a very good medical plan. I would also talk to the LEOs in your area to see if you can train with them. If your local LEOs say no, then I wouldn't do it. Keep in mind the role of security is to be a presence and crime deterent. Security is not the police, and undertaking roles normally associated with sworn LEOs is going to get you in serious trouble. The best way for security to help in a riot is a) stay out of the way b) provide surveillence footage, or video tape from the roof of your property for evidence later on. Riots are confusing, its bad enough most security look like police, you dont need a fully suited up security guard getting confused for a police officer and thrown into a riot.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Michael Ledgerwood View Post
                          Speaking as someone who was on a riot team, let me say I would not want to see any security present at a riot. You are opening yourself up for way too much liability. You can give the argument that "its our property and we will protect it." However, considering that most security are wannabes, it won't take long until they start wandering over to "help" the LEOs. I don't want that liability.

                          There is no difference between a "full blown riot" or a political one. A riot is a riot regardless of the cause. The Seattle WTO riots were not started by WTO protestors. They were started by a group of punks who wanted to stir up trouble and the protestors got caught up in it. It is the same whether a riot is start by striking workers or sports fans or two political ideas clashing. To be face to face in a riot situation is extremely dangerous and frightening. There are clear procedures and commands in place that the LEOs know and security won't know. This will severly limit the effetiveness of the sworn LEOs trying to calm the disturbance. Not only that, but anyone who works security knows just how much respect we get. Considering that rioters are attacking sworn LEOs they sure won't listen to a mere security guard.

                          In my opinion, if you are a security guard and you wish to create a "riot team" you better have lawsuit insurance and a very good medical plan. I would also talk to the LEOs in your area to see if you can train with them. If your local LEOs say no, then I wouldn't do it. Keep in mind the role of security is to be a presence and crime deterent. Security is not the police, and undertaking roles normally associated with sworn LEOs is going to get you in serious trouble. The best way for security to help in a riot is a) stay out of the way b) provide surveillence footage, or video tape from the roof of your property for evidence later on. Riots are confusing, its bad enough most security look like police, you dont need a fully suited up security guard getting confused for a police officer and thrown into a riot.

                          Aren't you a security guard yourself? You post comes off sounding condescending.
                          I don’t think private security necessarily has a role in a riot situation. However, telling them they can’t handle protecting their property because they are “wannabes” and don’t have the common sense not to “help” the police is arrogant.
                          ATTN. SPECOPS AND GECKO45 my secret username is CIDDECEP and I am your S2. My authorization code is Six Wun Quebec Oscar Fife. Your presence here is tactically dangerous and compromises our overall mission parameter. Cease and desist all activity on this board. Our “enemies” are deft at computer hacking and may trace you back to our primary locale. You have forced me to compromise my situation to protect your vulnerable flank. This issue will be addressed later.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
                            Aren't you a security guard yourself? You post comes off sounding condescending.
                            I don’t think private security necessarily has a role in a riot situation. However, telling them they can’t handle protecting their property because they are “wannabes” and don’t have the common sense not to “help” the police is arrogant.
                            Oddly enough, this was his introduction when he first joined SIW...

                            "Hi joined the board in October but just recently started coming into the forum areas. Currently I work for Boeing as a security officer. Also have prior security at a company in seattle doing alarm responses and former law enforcement. It will be nice to talk on a board where hopefully no one ridicules the profession or does the "wannabe" garbage. Looking forward to hearing from the people out there."
                            "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
                              If Martial law is declared, you will most likely not be patrolling anything. Florida only permits law enforcement officers to possess a gun during a "civil emergency" or martial law situation.

                              >>That means its illegal to be armed, even if you have a license, during a hurricane.<<
                              Excuse me? Is this new? The rules musta changed since Opal and Ivan because several of us contractors were 'on assignment' while both happened.

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