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Criminals Should be Very Very Afraid of New Gun Law in Missouri

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  • #16
    Originally posted by LPGuy View Post
    I looked, but I couldn't find a single HIPPA certification anywhere.

    I could, however, find a lot of information about HIPAA.
    HIPPA certification (if I understand what you mean by the use of this word) is given by the Security Officer (and I do NOT mean a security officer as in one of us) who works for the business and is responsible for regulating compliance by all employees of HIPPA laws and trianing / certifying employees on HIPPA laws.

    The general certification issued, only shows that you have been trained in the security measures; what constitutes a "covered entity" and what constitutes a criminal act under HIPPA.

    HIPPA is one of those federal laws that is very complex and pretty much a pain the butt for everyone involved, including the patient, yet, is greatly needed nonetheless in order to protect the privacy of patients. Violations of HIPPA laws can bring to bear both criminal and civil prosecutions in law.

    The point I was making in my previous post is that because of this law, and that of the new Gun Law that requires courts to disclose protected information, the new Gun Law is bound to be contested through the courts on the basis that it violates HIPPA laws. But then, there are bound to be other components of this law that will also be contested in courts, as well.

    The new gun law is, to say the least, a controversial effort to address very serious issues in the constitutional right of the people to protect their life and property. The only thing that suprises me about this law is that "vehicles" are included because generally the courts tend to believe that a vehicle has only very limited and narrow meaning in way of constitutional rights. Therefore, I venture to say that "vehicles" were included primarily because of those used for camping and vacation travel.

    If you read the law, it uses both the words, dwelling and residence. Because a dwelling is generally considered to be ones residence, it is thought that the word "dwelling" was included separate from the word "residence" to indicate a place other than a noramal place of residence (someones actual house or apartment), such as a place of business; a motel / hotel room, and so forth.
    Last edited by Christopherstjo; 07-07-2007, 03:37 AM.

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    • #17
      In regard to Security Officers, what concerns me about this law is the manner that Security Officers in general but especially those who patrol residential accounts, will be drawn into a shooting and act accordingly only to be criminally punished for not knowing it was a lawful shooting when they shot the shooter.

      In other words, if a Security Officer responds to a call involving shots fired; draws his weapon and shoots the shooter who may accidently turn their firearm on the Security Officer for whatever reason. The concern here is that the Security Officer will be criminally or civilly charged and prosecuted for not knowing the shooter shot an intruder and therein acted in accordance with this new gun law. One would tend to think that the Security Officer would be justified in his conduct if the shooter points their firearm at the Security Officer, and hopefully this will be the case in the court trials undoubtedly to come.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Christopherstjo View Post
        [. . .] HIPPA certification [. . .]
        Originally posted by SecTrainer
        Look for HIPAA certification rather than "HIPPA".
        Exactly. My post was intended as sarcasm due to the mispelled acronym.

        Comment


        • #19
          Does the new law allow you to shoot someone on your door-step or do they have to enter the home. I've had drunks ring my doorbell in the middle of the night!

          Nathan,

          We have had home invasions here in Montreal, one just down the street from me. But I think there are less than 10 a year & a lot take place a homes that are known for dealing drugs.
          I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
          Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

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          • #20
            In the State of Ct. the Department of Mental Health and Addiction Services (my employeer) is required Hippo is voided to send notification to Dept. Of Public Safety anyone who is court ordered to any of our facilities for drugs alcohol or mental issues, and there pistol permit is atomatically revoked. I'll try to find the link.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Christopherstjo View Post
              To my understanding a citizen is permitted to carry a firearm so long as it is in plain view and can be seen from two different angles, from outside the car.
              I have no idea where you came up with this, but it certainly isn't present in any of the Missouri Revised Statutes.

              The proper statute to refer to is MRS 571.094, which states:

              20. A concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to this section or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state.
              (Emphasis mine.) http://www.packing.org/state/missouri/#statecar_law

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by LPGuy View Post
                I have no idea where you came up with this, but it certainly isn't present in any of the Missouri Revised Statutes.

                The proper statute to refer to is MRS 571.094, which states:

                (Emphasis mine.) http://www.packing.org/state/missouri/#statecar_law
                First, if you go back to my post (#15) you will clearly see, if you would actually read my post, that I point out that Missouri has a concealed weapons law. So I am not exactly sure what your point is in your above post when you are only confirming what I have already pointed out.

                Second, when citing state laws, could you please quote the right statute for the readers. The statute you cite does NOT exist at all under RSMo-Chapter 571. See http://www.moga.mo.gov/STATUTES/C571.HTM The correct statue is that of 571.107 RSMo (2006).

                Third, in regard to carrying a firearm inside a car and in plain view, you will note that in Section 571.020 RSMo (2006) nowhere is a handgun among the list of firearms that are not permitted to be transported. Hence, my statement (in post #15) that to my knowledge and firsthand experiences, it is not a criminal offense to carry a handgun inside a vehicle, so long as it can be seen from two different angles. I say "firsthand experiences" because when I was pulled over by the state trooper a couple of months ago and had my firearm with me - I did not receive any tickets nor was I criminally charged for transporting my firearm inside my car, in plain view.
                Last edited by Christopherstjo; 07-07-2007, 11:30 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Christopherstjo View Post
                  So I am not exactly sure what your point is in your above post when you are only confirming what I have already pointed out.
                  You posted erroneous information based on limited "first-hand knowledge" that isn't found anywhere in the Missouri statutes. I quoted the actual statute that deals with concealed carry of a firearm inside a vehicle. Apparently, the statute citation has since changed since 2005; however, the wording of the statute is virtually the same.

                  The original question was this:

                  Originally posted by DarkMetalWolf
                  Being ignorant of Mo. law, how would one carry a weapon, as a citizen, in a vehicle legally being loaded?
                  You answered with this:

                  Originally posted by Christopherstjo
                  To my understanding a citizen is permitted to carry a firearm so long as it is in plain view and can be seen from two different angles, from outside the car.
                  That, sir, is incorrect. Nowhere do the Missouri statutes say that if you carry a firearm in a vehicle, "it must be in plain view and seen from two different angles."

                  Again, here is what the Missouri statutes do say:

                  571.107. 1. A concealed carry endorsement issued pursuant to sections 571.101 to 571.121 or a concealed carry endorsement or permit issued by another state or political subdivision of another state shall authorize the person in whose name the permit or endorsement is issued to carry concealed firearms on or about his or her person or vehicle throughout the state.
                  (Emphasis mine. http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5710000107.HTM)

                  Note the fairly important words that deal with "concealed." You know, that "concealed" permit you got. The key word is, uh, concealed. Not plain view. Try reading the wording of the statute. The bearer is authorized to carry concealed firearms in his vehicle.

                  I challenge you to actually think about your perceptions. You really think it even makes sense to believe that if you are transporting a weapon, it needs to be sitting out on your seat and viewable from "two angles"? Really, come on. So the officer should be able to say, "Okay, I can see it from a 90 degree angle. Now let me step to the right a bit... all right, I see it from a 91 degree angle as well. You're perfectly in compliance with the 'plain view' law."

                  Originally posted by Christopherstjo
                  Third, in regard to carrying a firearm inside a car and in plain view, you will note that in Section 571.020 RSMo (2006) nowhere is a handgun among the list of firearms that are not permitted to be transported.
                  You are the master at twisting the law to mean what you want it to say. I'm interested in the day you appear before a judge and try to argue in the same manner. MRS 571.020 deals with the illegal possession, manufacture, transport, repair, and sale of illegal weapons. Beyond that, it says absolutely nothing about "plain view."

                  Originally posted by Christoperstjo
                  Hence, my statement (in post #15) that to my knowledge and firsthand experiences, it is not a criminal offense to carry a handgun inside a vehicle, so long as it can be seen from two different angles. I say "firsthand experiences" because when I was pulled over by the state trooper a couple of months ago and had my firearm with me - I did not receive any tickets nor was I criminally charged for transporting my firearm inside my car, in plain view.
                  Basing your supposed knowledge of the law on your "firsthand experience" is not very intelligent. By your logic, when I was pulled over several months ago and did not receive a ticket, I can thereby deduce that speeding isn't illegal!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by DarkMetalWolf View Post
                    Well said and I agree with you 100%.




                    I have a few questions regarding vehicles and the law in Mo. Being ignorant of Mo. law, how would one carry a weapon, as a citizen, in a vehicle legally being loaded? Does Mo. allow this? I did not think Mo had a ccw law or do they? You sound shocked about this. So it would lead me to think it was illegal.
                    I'm not a lawyer, but from reading the statute and the information pamphlet from Missouri Highway Patrol, I would say you could carry concealed in a vehicle without a concealed carry endorsement.

                    S571.030.1 Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed,

                    http://www.moga.state.mo.us/statutes...rs/chap571.htm

                    In addition to the concealed carry endorsement discussed above, Missouri
                    now permits any person who is at least 21 years old to transport a concealable
                    firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle. No concealed carry
                    endorsement is required. Under the old law, the peaceable journey exception
                    to the unlawful-use-of-a-weapon law permitted travelers on a continuous
                    peaceable journey to carry a concealed weapon. The peaceable journey
                    exception is still in the law, and may apply in circumstances where the new
                    law does not (i.e. if the person is less than 21 years old).

                    http://www.mshp.dps.mo.gov/MSHPWeb/P...es/SHP-863.pdf

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      It appears that Missouri has a "peaceable traveler's exemption" when transporting a firearm during a continuous journey peaceable through the state. However, it seems that otherwise carrying a loaded firearm on your person while in a vehicle would require a concealed carry endorsement in the state of Missouri.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by T202 View Post
                        I'm not a lawyer, but from reading the statute and the information pamphlet from Missouri Highway Patrol, I would say you could carry concealed in a vehicle without a concealed carry endorsement.

                        S571.030.1 Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed,

                        http://www.moga.state.mo.us/statutes...rs/chap571.htm

                        In addition to the concealed carry endorsement discussed above, Missouri
                        now permits any person who is at least 21 years old to transport a concealable
                        firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle. No concealed carry
                        endorsement is required. Under the old law, the peaceable journey exception
                        to the unlawful-use-of-a-weapon law permitted travelers on a continuous
                        peaceable journey to carry a concealed weapon. The peaceable journey
                        exception is still in the law, and may apply in circumstances where the new
                        law does not (i.e. if the person is less than 21 years old).

                        http://www.mshp.dps.mo.gov/MSHPWeb/P...es/SHP-863.pdf
                        An interesting Article on MO law

                        In regards to firearms MO seems much like Texas.
                        ~Black Caesar~
                        Corbier's Commandos

                        " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Black Caesar View Post
                          An interesting Article on MO law

                          In regards to firearms MO seems much like Texas.
                          Thanks for posting. That seems to clear up some of those issues.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            [QUOTE=T202;33701]I'm not a lawyer..............

                            S571.030.1 Subdivision (1) of subsection 1 of this section does not apply to any person twenty-one years of age or older transporting a concealable firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle, so long as such concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed,

                            http://www.moga.state.mo.us/statutes...rs/chap571.htm

                            [I]In addition to the concealed carry endorsement discussed above, Missouri
                            now permits any person who is at least 21 years old to transport a concealable
                            firearm in the passenger compartment of a motor vehicle. No concealed carry
                            endorsement is required........
                            [QUOTE]







                            T202 has it exactly correct. As a Missouri resident and a CC permit holder methinks I'm qualified to affirm his take on this subject.

                            Even without a CC permit, anyone over 21 with a lawfully possessed concealable firearm may carry it anywhere in a vehicle....either in view or not. Although I would HIGHLY advise that if you are pulled over or otherwise have an encounter with a LEO in MO, one of the first things to tell him/her is that you're, or your vehicle, is "packin' ", and the location of your shootin' iron.
                            You can educate dumb, but you can't fix stupid.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by LPGuy View Post
                              That, sir, is incorrect. Nowhere do the Missouri statutes say that if you carry a firearm in a vehicle, "it must be in plain view and seen from two different angles."
                              In my post (#15) I clearly point out that there are two ways to carry a firearm in your vehicle, one way is by having a concealed weapons permit and the second is by carrying the firearm in plain view. So I fail to see validity in your argument.

                              The article on the Missouri Bar web site is certainly interesting, to say the least, and I do agree that if you are carrying a concealed firearm it is most prudent to inform an LEO of such if he / she pulls you over. However, caution should be exercised since there is always a risk of being halled off in handcuffs by an LEO who does not know the full scope of the law, since by virtue of the Missouri Bar article, it appears to be rather extensive in what does and does not apply. Charges may be dropped but the problems caused, as a result, will likely remain in effect.
                              Last edited by Christopherstjo; 07-08-2007, 08:13 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Christopherstjo View Post
                                In my post (#15) I clearly point out that there are two ways to carry a firearm in your vehicle, one way is by having a concealed weapons permit and the second is by carrying the firearm in plain view. So I fail to see validity in your argument.
                                Nice try, but that's not what you said at all. Again, for your own review:

                                Originally posted by Christopherstjo
                                To my understanding a citizen is permitted to carry a firearm so long as (1) it is in plain view and (2) can be seen from two different angles, from outside the car.
                                You listed two prerequisites to carry a firearm in a vehicle: (1) "so long as" it is in plain view, (2) "and" [it] can be seen from two different angles, from outside the [vehicle]. By your own wording, you were convinced that those two criteria must be met to carry a firearm inside your vehicle, based on your "personal experience."

                                The "validity in my argument" consists of pointing out that nowhere in Missouri law is there any requirement to carry your firearm in "plain view and viewable from two different angles, from outside the car." As a matter of fact, that's a good way to gain some unwanted attention, and very likely to earn you a visit from the police after calls from concerned citizens.

                                The original question has been clearly answered by now, so I'll stop. I first wanted to correct the mis-information you were providing here to other readers. Please do not post again unless you can cite a Missouri statute referring to your "two angles" theory.

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