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  • #46
    Originally posted by Chimpie View Post
    Are your officers/guards not competent enough to make these decisions on their own? If it is a minor issue, why aren't they creating a maintenance log of stuff they find on their shift?
    We have a log that is passed on, but from the sounds of it they are filling out the log plus calling. Aftering hearing that some of them are calling about minor things, it makes me wonder...

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Bill Warnock View Post
      Nathan, in my security guide, lectures and in person demonstrations I've tried to place emphasis on this subject; but people just don't seem to grasp the seriousness of the situation
      You are correct in your assessment and it exists because security has never been looked upon as a "learned profession" consisting of skilled "Officers" who are competent in their profession.

      Rather, our industry and those of us working as s/o's, are most often viewed as the "rat pack;" those who are highschool drop outs, criminals, wannabe's and other degrading names, even if true. Hence, when this is the perception of us then the effect is essentially to simply give us a mop and rag and tell us to go clean the toilet because often times that is all we are viewed as amounting to in the value we have within the criminal justice system.

      The vast majority of clients and heck, the vast majority of employers for that matter, do not actually care about providing "real" security (unless of course the crap hits the fan and naturally then its' always the s/o's fault) but rather making money off of our presence and the process of using us, as warm bodies to fill a post, lower insurance rates, play customer service and do housekeeping work. Many times we are punished for enforcing the rules and regulations of the client on the basis of favortism and perceived class status of another - and yet, if we do not enforce these things we are punished just as swiftly.

      My employer is currently facing a delima - a client wants to impose a rule, in an extremely high crime district, that dictates a specific amount of time an s/o has to wait for a person engaged in criminal activity, on the clients property, to decide to cease and desist in the criminal act(s) before the s/o can arrest the person. A policy such as this serves to severely endanger the s/o's life and safety, not to mention giving the apperance of having to beg a criminal to agree not to commit crimes. If my employer says no, he likely will lose the account.

      These are the kinds of clients that often times exist; ones that do not care and simply refuse to grasp the concept of security and the fact that every time an s/o addresses someone who is committing a crime, the s/o is risking their own personal safety to protect the safety and property of others, for a so-called "pennys on the dollar fair wage."
      Christopherstjo
      Member
      Last edited by Christopherstjo; 06-24-2007, 09:32 AM.

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      • #48
        Are we talking...

        "Security Guard. Hey, you, stop doing that!"

        Wait 1 minute for them to stop and run away.

        "I said stop, you dumb SOB, you're under arrest!"

        Arrest dumb SOB for not running away after being given a minute or so to realize he's found and flee?

        --

        Or are we talking about you have to wait a minute before doing anything, including announcing your presence, even on a crime against person?
        Some Kind of Commando Leader

        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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        • #49
          Chris, your response is the most depressing post I've read in a very long time. Am I the only ignorant one in this forum? Is the security officer just employed to do nothing but report what he sees? Most alarming in Chris' post is the requirement to notify your supervisor first and then sit back and wait for something to happen. Chris and others, it is hard to believe this is the prevailing attitude; post 9/11. Maybe we need to get our teeth rattled again and innocents taken from our midst.
          Bill
          Bill Warnock
          Senior Member
          Last edited by Bill Warnock; 06-24-2007, 02:35 PM. Reason: Missing word

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          • #50
            Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
            Or are we talking about you have to wait a minute before doing anything, including announcing your presence, even on a crime against person?
            Yes, but without the part of announcing our presence --- here's what happened:

            A s/o contacted a person for trespassing on property. The s/o asked him to leave but the suspect stated his refusal to comply and incident to this, the s/o attempted to arrest him. The suspect resisted arresst and engaged in phsical violence, causing bodily injury and pled guilty to such. The time frame involved from the point that the s/o contacted the person and asked him to leave and that of first attempting to arrest him was 17 seconds, according to the videotape. The client is upset that the s/o did not give the supsect more than 17 seconds to decide if he was going to obey the law and comply with the s/o's instruction for him to leave.

            A lot can happen in 17 seconds - imposing a "greater than 17 second rule" is substantially dangerous to the s/o life and safety - not to mention impractical since it would require us to carry a stop watch. Moreover, the client wants us to inore a criminals [first] statement of "no I won't comply" the first time around and thus, require us to essentially beg them to comply - in the eyes of a criminal this makes us look weak and open for attack.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Bill Warnock View Post
              Chris, your response is the most depressing post I've read in a very long time. Am I the only ignorant one in this forum? Is the security officer just employed to do nothing but report what he sees? Most alarming in Chris' post is the requirement to notify your supervisor first and then sit back and wait for something to happen. Chris and others, it is hard to believe this is the prevailing attitude; post 9/11. Maybe we need to get our teeth rattled again and innocents taken from our midst.
              Bill
              Depressing or not - it is a sad truth in our industry. Many employers want a zero liability environment for themselves in order to maximize their personal profits and many clients merely want to obtain "free services" in way of housekeeping and other non-security officer duties, and to lower their insurance rates. Meanwhile it is the s/o who absorbs the bulk of the liability involved and is blamed when things go wrong.

              Security is protecting life, property and assets against criminal conduct and safety violations. The problem is that the term "safety violations" has been turned into the be all - cure all catch phrase to seemingly justify having security do non-security related duties and to use it as a mechanism to pass the buck of liability, for example. A s/o is taking out the trash and a criminal breaks in, while the s/o is gone from the desk. Logic would dictate that the s/o is excused from wrongdoing because he was performing his required non-security duty. Yet, the s/o is nevertheless blamed on the absurd reasoning that he could have taken the trash out after the criminal broke in, instead. As if the s/o has ESP to know when a criminal is going to strike next and despite the absurdity existing here, employers and clients actually get away with this sort of crappy argument when they reprimand or fire an s/o.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by N. A. Corbier View Post
                If the guard's purpose is to protect the person he's escorting, then his hands should not be encumbered by trash. If their purposes is to observe the attack and report it to someone, then I see no reason why they can't help with the trash.

                All in all, it depends on what they're doing out there. To protect someone, to physically intervene, you need your hands free. To simply observe, flee the scene, and report it to a supervisor (or the police if your state law requires it), you do not need your hands, only your feet.
                They are there to protect. However the alley in question is now well lit and any attacker could be seen from quite a distance. There is plenty of time to drop the trash should the need arise, unless the attacker is a sniper.
                "Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists. " Author Unknown

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                • #53
                  Deliver towels...
                  Deliver TP...
                  Take pool chemical readings...
                  Fix TV's/VCR's/DVD players...
                  Assist folks not smart enough to turn on a television set...
                  Play Maytag repairman and diagnose problems with household appliances...

                  Been there done that, not gonna change anytime soon...
                  “Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left”
                  "I swear to God, I'm going to pistol whip the next guy that says 'Shenanigans' "... Capt. O'Hagan, "Super Troopers"

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Christopherstjo View Post
                    Its' about maximizing profits - if they have "security" there to do non-security duties then they don't have to pay someone else - two birds with one stone sort of thing.

                    The majority of clients are not genuinely interested in having "real" security - if they were, they would not have s/o's doing non-security work. Heck, you're lucky if a client even gets a clue what security is about, most of the time. Window dressing - Window dressing - that's what security seems to be anymore, now days - to lower insurance rates and get the blame when all crap breaks out.
                    The board is virtually polluted with this sort of post from you. I'm at a loss to understand, since you're so cynical about (and can't get along with) security company owners, corporate/property management, since you dislike anything that smacks of a "profit motive" (damn those profiteering capitalists!), and since you find the whole system so phony, degrading and artificial, why not just go find something else to do with your life that doesn't evoke such cynicism and discontent? Most of the officers on this forum are doing work in which they take enormous pride, and understand the relationship between a company making a profit and the phrase "..and that's good, because that's why I have a job!".

                    In contrast with Mr. Holmes' attitude, I'm impressed with the posts here by officers who take a "pitch in and help" attitude. For sure, there are some environments where the security risks are so high, and the security duties are so demanding, that it ill-behooves management to permit officers to be distracted for even one minute from their primary duties. This is quite understandable - and that case should be made to management.

                    On the other hand, there are other environments where officers performing some brief "nonsecurity" duties is by no means an unreasonable expectation. Heck, even LEOs are frequently asked to perform duties that are hardly "police jobs". I worked for a department in a small city where we were sometimes asked to remove road kill (street department worker), deliver documents to the homes of city council members (delivery service), haul a city employee somewhere (cab driver), and a million other things.

                    In fact, there's nothing whatsoever really all that unusual about a certain amount of "leakage" in almost any job. Our corporate accountant often works late and will sometimes answer the phones while the evening switchboard operator takes her break. So what?

                    My advice is to transform ALL such activities into security opportunities whenever you can. Every contact with a nonsecurity employee, for instance, is valuable for the SO. Every duty that takes you out of your "patrol routine", makes you less predictable and gives you an opportunity to observe things you might not otherwise see, is valuable for the SO. Take the attitude that there are no non-security duties or opportunities. Who knows? Maybe you go to get a mop and, because you're always, first and foremost a security officer, you're paying attention and discover that some employee has stashed something in the janitor's closet for later removal from the premises...because you weren't just thinking of this as "just a mop job".

                    I might have been delivering city papers, but I was a cop while I did it. I might have been hauling a city employee out to the sewer treatment plant, but I was a cop while I did it. Wherever I went, and whatever I was doing, I was, first and always, a cop. In fact, I learned some very interesting cop-related things while doing these "non-cop" jobs because I was always watching, observing and talking to the people these jobs brought me into contact with.

                    In other words, regardless of what the specific duty might be, an SO can and should always be "doing security"! And, as someone suggested above, you should always record every activity you perform for that time each year when budgets are being prepared and every department has to justify its existence, when management is scrutinizing every penny it spends on personnel. More than one security job has been saved by a manager who could justify those slots on the basis of ALL of the duties - security and non-security - that his officers perform for the company.
                    SecTrainer
                    Senior Member
                    Last edited by SecTrainer; 06-26-2007, 01:43 AM.
                    "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                    "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                    "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                    "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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                    • #55
                      That was a great post, SecTrainer. You even answered your own question about why Chris doesn't find something else. All jobs have "leakage".
                      "Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists. " Author Unknown

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                      • #56
                        I have only one thing to ask, whom is Mr. Holmes?
                        Some Kind of Commando Leader

                        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          This thread has been a real eye opener. I personaly have never had a Security job where I have been assigned anything but Security. Granted at a couple places we did thoroughly clean the office/shack and surrounding area but most of us like a clean office environment. This cleaning detail has been in the middle of the night and in no way distracted us from our Security duties.

                          VCR repair, pool maintenance, electrical repair, janitor duties, cetra, cetra. Amazing.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
                            .... even LEOs are frequently asked to perform duties that are hardly "police jobs". I worked for a department in a small city where we were sometimes asked to remove road kill (street department worker), deliver documents to the homes of city council members (delivery service), haul a city employee somewhere (cab driver), and a million other things......
                            I appreciated your point and it helps us to be reasonable about this part of the job. The police in my area are also asked to do similar tasks. As long as security is not taking 2nd place, I will keep this mental attitude in mind.
                            Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
                              The board is virtually polluted with this sort of post from you
                              Stop whining.

                              What you grossly fail to understand is that the point I am making is that s/o's deserve better than the industry and clients are giving; we work hard for our money and play a significant role in the criminal justice system. But the reality is, we are commonly looked up in degrading ways and treated no less the same. That is not, as you say, a "polluted" thought, it is a fact.

                              Not every task that we do in security actually has anything to do with security. Security is supposed to be about protecting life, property and assets from criminal acts and violations of internal rules and policies that place the client and the public at risk. Hence, if we accept that security is there to "O&R" then security is there to report that a toilet needs to be cleaned, not be required to clean it ourselves... doing so is no longer about O&R but rather about doing someone elses job for them without getting paid the extra wages for doing so.

                              Don't like my views. . . oh well and so what. Its' like I said a long time ago. I could say fire is hot and you'd be right there with something negative to say just to argue.
                              Christopherstjo
                              Member
                              Last edited by Christopherstjo; 06-28-2007, 02:23 AM.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Christopherstjo View Post
                                ...the reality is, we are commonly looked up in degrading ways and treated no less the same. That is not, as you say, a "polluted" thought, it is a fact.
                                ...but hardly a universal fact, Mr. Holmes. There are many posts on this board from many members expressing satisfaction with their compensation, their duties, and the manner in which they are regarded and treated.

                                De-focus on yourself. You can't control "how you are regarded" - especially in terms of their first impressions. It's true that lots of people - including cops - have a low "knee-jerk" opinion about "guards". The media tend to promote these stereotypes. What you can (and will) influence is whether their low opinion is confirmed or contradicted by your demeanor, deportment, attitude and competence. If you have to change people's minds one at a time, then do so!!

                                Not every task that we do in security actually has anything to do with security. Security is supposed to be about protecting life, property and assets from criminal acts and violations of internal rules and policies that place the client and the public at risk.
                                This is a very narrow view of "security". There are many other ways in which the security officer can contribute. Would you not agree, for instance, that a security officer would reasonably be expected to direct visitors to the proper floor of a building, or to tell them where the nearest public telephones or restrooms are located? Neither of these falls within your definition!

                                And, there are many sources of "risk" other than crimes and violations of policies. I certainly regard it as an officer's proper place to note, report, and, if necessary, mitigate all sorts of other hazards that he is in the best position to recognize.

                                As I pointed out, people in almost every job will find themselves being asked to do things that aren't strictly "position-related". There's nothing unusual about this whatsoever, and it isn't unique to security by any means. In fact, it's so common that I'd venture to guess that there are darned few people in the working world who aren't sometimes asked to do something "extra"....something "not in their job description".

                                Lose the bad attitude and develop a team-player, "whatever it takes" attitude, Mr. Holmes. You'll get along much better with your employers than you seem to. You're way too focused on yourself, frankly.

                                ...doing someone elses job for them without getting paid the extra wages for doing so.
                                Extra wages? As long as you're being paid for your time while you're on the clock and doing work that is required by your employer, it's fair dinkum as far as you're concerned, and you ARE being compensated. If you don't like the duties, do your employer a favor and look for another job you like better.

                                Don't like my views. . . oh well and so what.
                                It's not a matter of "liking" or "not liking" your views, Mr. Holmes. I simply disagree with many of them. And you're quite wrong. If you ever did come on this board to say that "fire is hot", you certainly wouldn't find me arguing with you. In fact, I'd be right there saying "Attaboy! You finally got one thing right!"

                                You have a very negative attitude about this field of work. You don't like your employers, their clients, or the duties you're asked to perform. You don't like what you're paid, or how you perceive that you're being "treated" or regarded by others. You're all out of kilter, Mr. Holmes. You're miserable and cynical. You seem to wish, almost desperately, that you were a policeman...but you're not. This seems to prevent you from realizing all that there is available to you by way of real satisfaction, promotion, intellectual challenge, interesting work, excellent compensation and - yes - even "respect" in the field right where you are - security. You might take a few moments and read the story we learned in childhood about the ugly duckling...it has a lesson for you about appreciating who and what we are.

                                You either need to do some serious soul-searching and course-correction, or you need to find something else to do. Life is simply too short to live it the way you're doing. If you don't want to look back on a lifetime of regrets, failure, multiple short-term jobs, lawsuits, "court dates", anger and bitterness, you're going to have to ask yourself at some point just what you're doing wrong...and then stop doing it. One thing's for sure...this ain't working for you. And the problem isn't everyone else. The problem isn't the field of security. The problem isn't your employers, your peers, the "system" or society. The problem isn't me. The problem, Mr. Holmes, is you. You are the only constant factor in all of your failed jobs and unhappy relationships, and if you'll think about it you'll realize the truth of this, which might be the first step to something much better in your future.

                                You probably have many talents. I'd encourage you to find your gifts, Mr. Holmes, and then do whatever kind of work in life that expresses them. If that's the field of security, fine. Then, immerse yourself in security, forget your "cop ambitions" and discover all that security has to offer, which is truly immense. Do that with everything you've got, and you won't spend your time wishing you were something else because you wouldn't consider doing anything else.
                                SecTrainer
                                Senior Member
                                Last edited by SecTrainer; 06-30-2007, 05:01 PM.
                                "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                                "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                                "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                                "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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