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Do any of you PSOs carry the PR-24?

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  • jeff194307
    replied
    Having carried the PR24 every shift for the 12+ years that I was an officer at Pelican Bay, I have nothing but praise for that weapon. Inmates were scared to death of it. I also like the ability to use it as a defense tool against makeshift weapons. During our annual training, the instructors would use a baseball bat to teach us the defensive moves for strikes from every angle that you can think of.

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  • DMS 525
    replied
    One thing I always loved about the PR-24 is your ability to protect yourself from getting hit by improvised clubs. I worked security mostly at that bar for the last 6 years; should a major ruckus break out, there were two pool tables(pool cues), as well as chairs to tear apart, or in one instance, the rail fence surrounding the property! Never actually had to protect myself from such an attack, but glad I had it handy.

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  • Echos13
    replied
    Indeed one would be wise to know the limitations of any impact weapon. Above the shoulders is always the area one should avoid. But most instances my maglite has become a leverage tool in controlling rather than a weapon.

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  • Dam Guard
    replied
    [QUOTE=Investigation]If you use it as an impact weapon, it will be treated as such in court.

    This is so true. I knew 3 different guys that lost their jobs for using their kel-light or maglight instead of their batons. In each case the perp was struck on the head and in each case the officer had exited their vehicle with out their PR24. Still, the PR24 is truly a great baton. Personally I love it. If you ever do get in a situation where you have to use a flashlight as an impact weapon at least try to hit the same targets you would with a baton.

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  • Investigation
    replied
    Originally posted by Echos13
    I have seen this new attachment to maglites that fits like a side handle. An SO come in with one some months back and I kind of liked it. He had it on his 6 cell mag. However, I would think that this would be a problem in legal issues. But then, it's not a PR and it not a maglite?
    If you use it as an impact weapon, it will be treated as such in court. I think having a side handle on a maglite is stupid. It just screams (hey, I'm not allowed to carry a real one, so this is what I have).

    To all security officers:

    1. If you are not allowed to carry a weapon, don't.
    2. If you are allowed, but don't have the training, don't carry one.
    3. If you like the idea of carrying a baton, taser, spray, etc. but can't, go find a security job in a high crime area that allows these tools and you'll soon learn how they work after your initial training.
    Last edited by Investigation; 05-11-2007, 04:15 AM.

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    You modify a maglite by putting an attachment on it, it becomes a billie under Florida Law. Guess what? Its a club.

    These toys exist because people buy them. Just like the PR-24 that has a flashlight in the side handle.

    Your flashlight may be a makeshift impact weapon when you can't get to the real thing in time, yes, but if you start tasking it as a weapon, it becomes one.

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  • davis002
    replied
    Originally posted by Echos13
    I have seen this new attachment to maglites that fits like a side handle. An SO come in with one some months back and I kind of liked it. He had it on his 6 cell mag. However, I would think that this would be a problem in legal issues. But then, it's not a PR and it not a maglite?
    Why would you need a sidehandle on a flashlight??? I wish people would stop buying maglights with the thought "I cant carry a baton, so I will carry a maglight". A flashlight is just that, a flashlight! It is not an impact device, and should not be used as such. I understand that circumstances exist where one might, but it should still be avoided. It bothers me when unarmed security officers who are not permitted to carry a baton go out and buy a maglight with the intention to use it as an impact device. STOP THAT!

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  • Echos13
    replied
    I have seen this new attachment to maglites that fits like a side handle. An SO come in with one some months back and I kind of liked it. He had it on his 6 cell mag. However, I would think that this would be a problem in legal issues. But then, it's not a PR and it not a maglite?

    Leave a comment:


  • Qarlo X64
    replied
    Well thanks for the responses guys, I guess it's not just down here at the mall I'm doing Security on that sees the PR-24 as a tactical weapon of a boogey man squad. The property owners are now even thinking they won't let anyone carry at all as "liability" has once again reared it's head. I'm talking with my SD (Security Director) about presenting to the brass at the mall about *why* based off a well written out proposal for the PR-24 FX being standard carry though, based off all the experience I got from working in Hot Zones (what I refer to Government Housing Complexes and High Risk Construction Sites) where you wanted PSD or Psychological Suggestive Deterency within the Command Presence area of the Force Continum was paramount to stopping would be troublemakers + the fact if a knife was drawn you're only a target if you try to run or just stand there. We're expected to stop car theft in the process while another calls for the PD, and so far our Security force has been lucky... luck doesn't last forever.

    The whole political correctness involving "liability" is ridiculous, as PSO personal saftey and having an added reach/melee weapon within the capacity of a PDW should be key. But the agruement is that a shopping mall isn't a Hot Zone and too bad, so sad for you is the mantra. But of course only after talks about allowing properly certified PSOs to carry was teased out to us. I mean on a scale of 1-10 there'd be like a 1.5 1/2% chance of an Asp and/or PR-24 FX ever being put into use anyhow, and all manner of business would go on as usual within the Table of Operations. Pepper Spray is not an option because some dumb ass (apparently before my time at this post) used some to spray into the venilation system once and the mall had to be evacuated. The mall management doesn't seem to understand the furthered effectiveness of PSD in the command presence area of the FC, let alone it just might save the PSOs life in the event of a critical close quarters situation.

    Again though, thanks for all the imput.

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  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by CorpSec
    I watched the video and it is arguable whether or not the asp had any real impact on him. There are several videos that show the asp as pretty uneffective.
    I'm not a big fan of batons myself, for the basic reason that most of the time sprays are a better alternative, and now we have the Taser as the potential next step along the force continuum before you get to the "big kahuna", if your officers are armed.

    Studies have shown that most officers are not proficient in or do not use the "control" or "come-along" possibilities of the baton anyway, so all that leaves you with is the "striking" or "pain" uses of this device, which too often = blood, fractures, contusions, and a real bad image to people who might see you wailing away on some poor helpless pitiful murdering thieving car-jacking meth-dealing mother-raping felon with your "stick".

    The precaution about the spray-->Taser continuum, of course, is that you should be sure to carry a non-alcohol-based spray so that the Taser doesn't set the poor mother-raping lying thieving murdering defenseless pitiful felon on fire. Nope, you wouldn't want to do that.

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  • CorpSec
    replied
    Originally posted by bigdog
    heres a video where an officer strikes a suspect with an asp twice and the suspect surrenders.

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=qvO25Nqo9...elated&search=
    I watched the video and it is arguable whether or not the asp had any real impact on him. There are several videos that show the asp as pretty uneffective.

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  • BadBoynMD
    replied
    Originally posted by davis002
    Who told you that?!
    Friend of mine that just went through his re-certification.

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  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by BadBoynMD
    I just recently ordered a new baton, as I am going back into uniform to work midnights. (I hate being in the office) Apparently, i'm told that the 16" expandable baton is more effective than the longer models. The impact is suppose to be much harder.
    "Impact" is a term that would need to be defined in making such a comparison. There is certainly an argument to be made that from the standpoint of physics, a force concentrated in a smaller surface area does result in higher pounds/sq-inch than the same force spread over a larger surface area. However, there is another argument arising from the physics of the lever that suggests that (at least out at the tip, where the difference in the lengths of the two devices would come into play, with the hand as the fulcrum) the longer device would apply more force and strike with higher speed for the same arc of the hand delivering the blow (circumference of arc at the tip is larger, hence speed would have to be greater). Since force = mass times acceleration, the higher speed would be advantageous. Notice that your driver is the longest club in your bag, for good reason - increased clubhead speed for the same swing because of the longer arc of the clubhead, which translates to higher force delivered to the ball. There is no difference in the force, say, 18" down the shaft, however, between a short golf club and a long one, because the arc is the same if the distance from the hand is the same. The difference arises out at the ends of the two clubs where the arc for each club is different.

    There are some other physics involved in baton design that would be complex to evaluate, such as the shockwaves and harmonic waves that they create. Surprisingly, shorter devices do have a "higher tone" if you can think of them in audio terms and do create more intense shockwaves internally. The short 10" clave (pronounced "clah-vay") delivers incredible pain on this basis of shockwaves. Note that the short baton carried by the French police was very much respected, although I don't know if they still carry it.

    All in all, the differences between a 16" and, say, 20" baton are probably relatively slight in terms of "impact". However, there are other arguments to be made for the smaller baton in some cases, such as improved "wearability" for officers getting in and out of patrol cars, and easier use in confined spaces, as well as the fact that the smaller baton can be worn much less conspicuously. I certainly would not be chagrined or feel I was "underequipped" if I were issued the shorter baton.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 05-09-2007, 02:34 PM.

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  • davis002
    replied
    Originally posted by BadBoynMD
    Apparently, i'm told that the 16" expandable baton is more effective than the longer models. The impact is suppose to be much harder.
    Who told you that?!

    Leave a comment:


  • BadBoynMD
    replied
    Originally posted by SEO_09
    I have carried the ASP Baton and am certified in its use. When used properly the weapon is an invaluable tool. If it is depolyed properly, which is sometimes harder than it sounds, it will perform to its potential. But you must always remember that pain tolerance, or drug use can lessen the effects of the weapon substancially. This is true with OC and a firearm also.

    --Stay Safe
    I just recently ordered a new baton, as I am going back into uniform to work midnights. (I hate being in the office) Apparently, i'm told that the 16" expandable baton is more effective than the longer models. The impact is suppose to be much harder.

    Leave a comment:

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