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Do any of you PSOs carry the PR-24?

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  • Do any of you PSOs carry the PR-24?

    ...as in the old school single piece side handled "baton" ??? Right now the mall I'm working at is finally allowing the carry of the Asp/gravity stick, but a few of us prefer the older (and tried & true) PR-24. The Mall seems to think the PR-24 is "too tactical" versus the collapsable Asp. This makes me laugh a bit because the ear pieces we wear are "tactical" as even LEOs still use the open air lapel mic. I disagree on this decree, as do a few others but it's not our call. Of course I'm just going to buy me a collapsable PR-24esque Asp anyhow (nice circumvention), but I truly prefer the single piece baton, and in defense of that fine PDW.

    So do any of you (either non commissioned or commissioned) carry one of the old school batons? I still see a few LEOs wearing them but not often as most of them carry the Asp as well. I just find it odd that something that was once a basic part of Security and Police work as a non firearm PDW is now considered "tactical" and the weapon of a Boogey Man Unit.

  • #2
    There are several reasons that both security and police agencies switched to expandable batons, both by ASP and Monadnock. The most important is that you won't leave your ASP in the car when get get out, it remains on your belt.

    The second is the level of training required (8 hours) to use an expandable baton vs. the PR-24 (40+ hours for both the Protect and Restrain Segments of Monadnock PR-24 training.)

    As far as "too tactical," I actually have heard this before. Part of it is due to the Rodney King incident, the second part is that the full sized PR-24 (just like a Koga or straight baton) is a stick, and makes people think of billies and beat clubs.

    That, and someone who is practiced and proficient in the full PR-24 Protect and Restrain Course can do some serious damage with a PR-24.
    Some Kind of Commando Leader

    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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    • #3
      Many angencies, including the federal government, still cary the PR-24. It is a very versitile tool to carry and use. For some time, they have made the expandable PR-24 (one resides on my duty belt as I type). This prevents an officer from leaving it in the car. As far as looking too tactical? I guess this could be an issue, but it is not a problem where I work considering that it is in a high crime area and we are the first responders for any enforcement activities.

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      • #4
        The PR-24 has such a bad rap in CA... but it is a great tool. I highly recommend getting training beyond the minimum requirements because it can be the most versatile tool on your belt. Just check with your local laws because in CA we cannot use the baton in a defencive manner (only offence).

        I found this book at my library:
        http://www.amazon.com/Koga-Method-Po...8682444&sr=1-1
        Written by LAPD and martial arts instructor Koga.
        Police Officer

        Experience: Bouncer, EMT, Theme Park Security, Money Transport, Armed Guard

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        • #5
          Originally posted by dannyr619
          check with your local laws because in CA we cannot use the baton in a defencive manner (only offence).
          Wouldn't that be the other way around?
          "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

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          • #6
            I think the asp is more show than go. I have seen several videos on YouTube where officers have used their asps and the suspects acted as though they were hit with a wet noodle.

            It is a great psychological tool, but if they person calls your bluff I don't think it is worth much. I carried a 26 asp for years. It is great for breaking windows and that is about it.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by CorpSec
              I think the asp is more show than go. I have seen several videos on YouTube where officers have used their asps and the suspects acted as though they were hit with a wet noodle.

              It is a great psychological tool, but if they person calls your bluff I don't think it is worth much. I carried a 26 asp for years. It is great for breaking windows and that is about it.
              I agree... In roughly 5 years, I have used my ASP for its intended purpose twice with mixed results. If I could eliminate it from my duty belt, I would... but I can't. So, now I carry a 21" lightweight version.
              "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

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              • #8
                I just gathered around several of my officers and we watched a few Youtube videos with cops using their asps again. In one, there is a fight in a booking room and the cop strikes the suspect with the asp with absolutely no effect. In another, an officer is in a knock down drag out fight for a minute and a half and hits the guy probably ten to fifteen times with the asp with zero impact. In yet another one, an officer hits an old man a couple of times as he is removing a shovel from the back of his truck. Again, no effect really seen.

                No amount of gear on your belt can substitute for some good old fashioned officer safety, physical fitness and ground fighting skills.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by CorpSec
                  I just gathered around several of my officers and we watched a few Youtube videos with cops using their asps again. In one, there is a fight in a booking room and the cop strikes the suspect with the asp with absolutely no effect. In another, an officer is in a knock down drag out fight for a minute and a half and hits the guy probably ten to fifteen times with the asp with zero impact. In yet another one, an officer hits an old man a couple of times as he is removing a shovel from the back of his truck. Again, no effect really seen.

                  No amount of gear on your belt can substitute for some good old fashioned officer safety, physical fitness and ground fighting skills.
                  heres a video where an officer strikes a suspect with an asp twice and the suspect surrenders.

                  http://youtube.com/watch?v=qvO25Nqo9...elated&search=
                  "Get yourself a shovel cause your in deep Sh*t"

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                  • #10
                    I have carried the ASP Baton and am certified in its use. When used properly the weapon is an invaluable tool. If it is depolyed properly, which is sometimes harder than it sounds, it will perform to its potential. But you must always remember that pain tolerance, or drug use can lessen the effects of the weapon substancially. This is true with OC and a firearm also.

                    --Stay Safe
                    Keeping the parking lots safe, hallways moving and the Chik Fil A busy.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SEO_09
                      I have carried the ASP Baton and am certified in its use. When used properly the weapon is an invaluable tool. If it is depolyed properly, which is sometimes harder than it sounds, it will perform to its potential. But you must always remember that pain tolerance, or drug use can lessen the effects of the weapon substancially. This is true with OC and a firearm also.

                      --Stay Safe
                      I just recently ordered a new baton, as I am going back into uniform to work midnights. (I hate being in the office) Apparently, i'm told that the 16" expandable baton is more effective than the longer models. The impact is suppose to be much harder.
                      "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by BadBoynMD
                        Apparently, i'm told that the 16" expandable baton is more effective than the longer models. The impact is suppose to be much harder.
                        Who told you that?!
                        "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by BadBoynMD
                          I just recently ordered a new baton, as I am going back into uniform to work midnights. (I hate being in the office) Apparently, i'm told that the 16" expandable baton is more effective than the longer models. The impact is suppose to be much harder.
                          "Impact" is a term that would need to be defined in making such a comparison. There is certainly an argument to be made that from the standpoint of physics, a force concentrated in a smaller surface area does result in higher pounds/sq-inch than the same force spread over a larger surface area. However, there is another argument arising from the physics of the lever that suggests that (at least out at the tip, where the difference in the lengths of the two devices would come into play, with the hand as the fulcrum) the longer device would apply more force and strike with higher speed for the same arc of the hand delivering the blow (circumference of arc at the tip is larger, hence speed would have to be greater). Since force = mass times acceleration, the higher speed would be advantageous. Notice that your driver is the longest club in your bag, for good reason - increased clubhead speed for the same swing because of the longer arc of the clubhead, which translates to higher force delivered to the ball. There is no difference in the force, say, 18" down the shaft, however, between a short golf club and a long one, because the arc is the same if the distance from the hand is the same. The difference arises out at the ends of the two clubs where the arc for each club is different.

                          There are some other physics involved in baton design that would be complex to evaluate, such as the shockwaves and harmonic waves that they create. Surprisingly, shorter devices do have a "higher tone" if you can think of them in audio terms and do create more intense shockwaves internally. The short 10" clave (pronounced "clah-vay") delivers incredible pain on this basis of shockwaves. Note that the short baton carried by the French police was very much respected, although I don't know if they still carry it.

                          All in all, the differences between a 16" and, say, 20" baton are probably relatively slight in terms of "impact". However, there are other arguments to be made for the smaller baton in some cases, such as improved "wearability" for officers getting in and out of patrol cars, and easier use in confined spaces, as well as the fact that the smaller baton can be worn much less conspicuously. I certainly would not be chagrined or feel I was "underequipped" if I were issued the shorter baton.
                          Last edited by SecTrainer; 05-09-2007, 02:34 PM.
                          "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                          "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                          "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                          "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by davis002
                            Who told you that?!
                            Friend of mine that just went through his re-certification.
                            "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bigdog
                              heres a video where an officer strikes a suspect with an asp twice and the suspect surrenders.

                              http://youtube.com/watch?v=qvO25Nqo9...elated&search=
                              I watched the video and it is arguable whether or not the asp had any real impact on him. There are several videos that show the asp as pretty uneffective.

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