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  • Another what would you have done

    On the local news this morning a guy and his wife return home after work and as he is hanging up his coat a guy comes from another room with a ski mask on and a shot gun in his hands. The home owner reaches into the closet and pulls out his own shotgun and fires at the perp. The shot misses and the perp screws out the back door. The homeowner calls the cops. The cops do their little dance then tell the home owner that he will face undetermined charges because he should have called them and let them take care of it before firing at the guy first. DOH!

    Then also on the news a lady was told to get to the hospital ASAP in Tampa because her dad was taken by ambulance with a heart attack. Just as she approached the hospital she was pulled over by one of Tampa’s finest for speeding. She explained why and the officer went through the process of running her info. After 3 mins of waiting just feet from the hospital entrance she took off into the parking lot. The officer stopped her again and pulled her from the car slammed her on the trunk and cuffed her. He told her she was under arrest for bolting. When asked why he didn’t take the time to enter the emergency room he replied. “Because I didn’t believe her”
    He is serving a week suspension pending an investigation.

    These two incidences would not have made the news if there was not a controversy with both. The first legal and the second moral.
    THE AVERAGE RESPONSE TIME FOR A 911 CALL IS FOUR MINUTES
    THE AVERAGE RESPONSE TIME FOR A .357 MAGNUM ROUND IS 1400 FEET PER SECOND?
    http://www.boondocksaints.com/

  • #2
    Nothing will happen in the first case. The media outlash would ruin the department, most importantly the chief/sheriff.

    In the second case, the punishment is already being served. I've seen the video. Should the officer wrote her a ticket? I can't say, I wasn't there. Should the officer called the ER to see if the story was true? Not his job. Should the officer have pulled her out of the car, cuffed and stuffed? Absolutely.

    Comment


    • #3
      Running from the Tampa Police Department is never a good idea. They bring friends. Friends with shotguns. Like St. Petersburg, they had a "no pursuit" policy, but it can take a long time to follow the car to get a tag number.

      In the first, it really depends on where you are. In a lot of cases, the law is firmly on your side, and the police will tell you (to prevent from being sued, as they are the government speaking), "I'm not saying you should rush out and kill the guy, but you do what you gotta do, its your home. We'd prefer you call us first, but do what you have to do."

      In certain areas, including California, you get the book thrown at you for not hiding in your closet while calling 911 and disarming yourself of any weapons you may have.

      The suspect's life is more important than your property.
      Some Kind of Commando Leader

      "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Chimpie
        Nothing will happen in the first case. The media outlash would ruin the department, most importantly the chief/sheriff.

        In the second case, the punishment is already being served. I've seen the video. Should the officer wrote her a ticket? I can't say, I wasn't there. Should the officer called the ER to see if the story was true? Not his job. Should the officer have pulled her out of the car, cuffed and stuffed? Absolutely.
        Perhaps. Still, one would expect the police to exercise good judgment and be of service to the community. Wonder how he would like it if it was his family? He could have issued the infraction at the ER if he was that rigid in enforcing the law.
        Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
          The suspect's life is more important than your property.
          Yes, but is his life worth more than my life (or my family's)? Just as soon as the government guarantees me that he's only going to take my stuff, I'll guarantee them that I won't pop a cap in his direction. Until then, I don't frankly give a crap which state I live in...someone comes into my house to commit a felony, and I'm going to do my damndest to blow his tits off. I will then don my hobnail boots and dance several of the more vigorous Irish jigs on his remains...

          ...THEN I'll call the cops, assuming that it's not a good day for just burying the clown out back in the rose garden (roses always need fertilizer) and calling the whole thing a job well done.

          This is not intended as advice, as it's all a matter of your own perspective. As they say, a crowded elevator smells different to a midget.
          Last edited by SecTrainer; 05-04-2007, 08:56 PM.
          "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

          "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

          "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

          "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

          Comment


          • #6
            The backlash the department would get for prosecuting the guy would be tremendous.
            I agree with SecTrainer. I'm glad I live in a state that allows someone to protect their property. (The crowded elevator thing was great )

            As for the second incident. The officer had every right when she took off to cuff and stuff. He should have then found out the situation. I was pulled over for speeding to the hospital once because my grandfather was on his last breath. The officer didn't even confirm and gave me an escort with lights and siren. I got there in time.

            Comment


            • #7
              To me the first situation sounds more like one of two things. Either over-zeaulous cops (We CAN"T have people shooting people!! ) OR, they might be offering some type of advice. Akin to; "If you do shoot you COOOOUUUULD face charges."

              But again, it probably is nothing more that another state where bad guys have more rights.

              The Second situation was absolutely a job well done. Here's what I know of the case.

              She got a phone call advising her that her father was in the hospital, as he had a heart attack and she needed to come down. She jumps in her car and is travelling almost twice the posted speed limit (63/35) on RESIDENTIAL surface streets. The cop pulls her over, she tells him what's going. Then decideds (probably) that the cop is taking too long so she rabbits and he gives chase. As he should, he still had her detained for the traffic stop. So now she has committed a second crime. In Oregon that is a C Felony. No idea what Fl says about it. So the cop catches up, detains her using an appropriate amount of force. (if there is a video depicting something different PLEASE point it out to me)

              I say she was in the wrong.

              Most of us know how to react in a stressfull environment. Do you think she even realized that if her dad was having such difficulty that the hospital staff wouldn't even allow her to see her father until his medical condition had stabilized? So was driving at Mach speeds down RESIDENTIAL SURFACE STREETS endangering everyone's lives on the way to the hospital, a justifiable defense? I think not...

              Before anyone flames me with crap like, "what if it was your dad?" Nonsense, my dad understands how to react in times like that. I would expect him to understand why I wasn't there three minutes after I got off the phone. He would want to see me at his bedside, not waiting for him at the Pearly Gates.
              ~Super Ninja Sniper~
              Corbier's Commandos

              Nemo me impune lacessit

              Grammical and Spelling errors may occur form time to time. Yoov bin worned

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              • #8
                http://tbo.com/video/xml/MGB8GBOK81F.html

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Chucky
                  Then also on the news a lady was told to get to the hospital ASAP in Tampa because her dad was taken by ambulance with a heart attack. Just as she approached the hospital she was pulled over by one of Tampa’s finest for speeding. She explained why and the officer went through the process of running her info. After 3 mins of waiting just feet from the hospital entrance she took off into the parking lot. The officer stopped her again and pulled her from the car slammed her on the trunk and cuffed her. He told her she was under arrest for bolting. When asked why he didn’t take the time to enter the emergency room he replied. “Because I didn’t believe her”
                  He is serving a week suspension pending an investigation.
                  Not that it matters, but just to clarify. Her father drove himself to the hospital. She drove off into the parking lot to try and find his car. Regardless, both of them made mistakes. I do feel that he could of at least made some sort of effort to verify her story.
                  "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The first guy should never face any charges. All he needs to say is that he was in fear of his life. And, if a guy is in his house wearing a ski mask and carrying a shotgun, who could disagree? That case won't go anywhere.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by davis002
                      Not that it matters, but just to clarify. Her father drove himself to the hospital. She drove off into the parking lot to try and find his car. Regardless, both of them made mistakes. I do feel that he could of at least made some sort of effort to verify her story.
                      Ehh... That's not his job though. Like Chucky said, this is more of a moral dilemma than anything... I didn't see anything in the video that stood out as being wrong..... Sure, he COULD have made an attempt to verify her story, but honestly... Cops are already swamped for time in most cities across the US... Imagine how much less time they'd have if they stopped to verify every BS story that every speeder told them...

                      I can understand her emotions running a bit high, hearing about her father. But as ValleyOne said, she shouldn't have been risking OTHER lives just to try and get there a few minutes quicker. And she DEFINATELY shouldn't have taken off on the cop.

                      I personally don't believe he should've been suspended for this. Especially after seeing the video.
                      Corbier's Commandos - "Stickin it to the ninjas!"
                      Originally posted by ValleyOne
                      BANG, next thing you know Bob's your Uncle and this Sgt is seemingly out on his a$$.
                      Shoulda called in sick.
                      Be safe!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ValleyOne
                        To me the first situation sounds more like one of two things. Either over-zeaulous cops (We CAN"T have people shooting people!! ) OR, they might be offering some type of advice. Akin to; "If you do shoot you COOOOUUUULD face charges."

                        But again, it probably is nothing more that another state where bad guys have more rights.

                        The Second situation was absolutely a job well done. Here's what I know of the case.

                        She got a phone call advising her that her father was in the hospital, as he had a heart attack and she needed to come down. She jumps in her car and is travelling almost twice the posted speed limit (63/35) on RESIDENTIAL surface streets. The cop pulls her over, she tells him what's going. Then decideds (probably) that the cop is taking too long so she rabbits and he gives chase. As he should, he still had her detained for the traffic stop. So now she has committed a second crime. In Oregon that is a C Felony. No idea what Fl says about it. So the cop catches up, detains her using an appropriate amount of force. (if there is a video depicting something different PLEASE point it out to me)

                        I say she was in the wrong.

                        Most of us know how to react in a stressfull environment. Do you think she even realized that if her dad was having such difficulty that the hospital staff wouldn't even allow her to see her father until his medical condition had stabilized? So was driving at Mach speeds down RESIDENTIAL SURFACE STREETS endangering everyone's lives on the way to the hospital, a justifiable defense? I think not...

                        Before anyone flames me with crap like, "what if it was your dad?" Nonsense, my dad understands how to react in times like that. I would expect him to understand why I wasn't there three minutes after I got off the phone. He would want to see me at his bedside, not waiting for him at the Pearly Gates.
                        When you're anxious, even a minute's delay can seem like a lifetime. I'd have probably detained her long enough to get her story, escorted her to the ER at a SAFE SPEED, perhaps even with the use of emergency gear depending on departmental policy, but definitely with her DL and registration in my possession (while checking W&W on the way).

                        Then, if I felt it was absolutely necessary (which her speed does suggest) I'd have issued her citation at the ER and let a judge sort it out if she wants to plead not guilty. This was, after all, only a traffic violation. In my opinion, the way this was handled, while technically correct, aggravated the situation unnecessarily.

                        All this, of course, presumes we don't have a current BOLO for a female bank robber driving a car fitting her description!

                        Of course, in the days before the HIPAA regulations, we could have also had the dispatcher call the ER while we were en route to see if her father was even there. Now, at many hospitals, they do not feel they can release even that much information, even to the police. I believe some changes will be coming to HIPAA in this regard, because that was never the intention of the law.
                        Last edited by SecTrainer; 05-05-2007, 03:05 PM.
                        "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                        "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                        "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                        "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SecTrainer
                          When you're anxious, even a minute's delay can seem like a lifetime. I'd have probably detained her long enough to get her story, escorted her to the ER at a SAFE SPEED, perhaps even with the use of emergency gear depending on departmental policy, but definitely with her DL and registration in my possession (while checking W&W on the way).

                          Then, if I felt it was absolutely necessary (which her speed does suggest) I'd have issued her citation at the ER and let a judge sort it out if she wants to plead not guilty. This was, after all, only a traffic violation. In my opinion, the way this was handled, while technically correct, aggravated the situation unnecessarily.
                          All this, of course, presumes we don't have a current BOLO for a female bank robber driving a car fitting her description!

                          Of course, in the days before the HIPAA regulations, we could have also had the dispatcher call the ER while we were en route to see if her father was even there. Now, at many hospitals, they do not feel they can release even that much information, even to the police. I believe some changes will be coming to HIPAA in this regard, because that was never the intention of the law.
                          Exactly right. If you want to get technical about the law and justice, then stop giving professional courtesy passes to fellow LEO's who knowingly break the speed limit. What's fair is fair.
                          Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The other problem here is that when she left during the traffic stop, the infraction became a felony in the deputy's mind, and he ramped up to catch the felon.

                            Who knows why she ran, at that point in time? Maybe she had a warrant, drugs, stolen car that wasn't in FCIC yet... If you drive off when the blue lights are on in Florida, you are a criminal.
                            Some Kind of Commando Leader

                            "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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