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  • ValleyOne
    replied
    Originally posted by dannyr619
    Good points there. And yes all we carry is handcuffs. CA Law: guns and batons are out because we go plain clothes, mace is out (too crowded), electric weapons would be nice but against company policy, knifes are out too.

    I personally wear a Level 2 vest (no stab protection), but we mainly rely on strength in numbers (12-15 for a crowd of 586 max)
    Ever look into Pepper Foam, or that new Pepper Gel???

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Originally posted by dannyr619
    Good points there. And yes all we carry is handcuffs. CA Law: guns and batons are out because we go plain clothes, mace is out (too crowded), electric weapons would be nice but against company policy, knifes are out too.

    I personally wear a Level 2 vest (no stab protection), but we mainly rely on strength in numbers (12-15 for a crowd of 586 max)
    Danny, what is your greatest threat knife or gun? I hope it is not knife and strength in numbers does provide some relief but you're stabbed and the other 11 or so wrestle the knifer down, if they can quickly identify that person. Not a very cheerful prospect.
    My guess is you don't have CCTV coverage.
    Stay safe Danny!
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • OccamsRazor
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by HotelSecurity
    These Officers are not allowed (by union contract) to respond to any dangerous call alone even though they have guns.
    Wow...I remember working in Alaska doing everything from traffic to domestic calls to an armed robbery with shots (OK, one shot, but still!) fired, all by my lonesome.

    Closest backup was about 3 hours away by air.

    Wow.

    Leave a comment:


  • HotelSecurity
    replied
    Originally posted by dannyr619
    Good points there. And yes all we carry is handcuffs. CA Law: guns and batons are out because we go plain clothes, mace is out (too crowded), electric weapons would be nice but against company policy, knifes are out too.

    I personally wear a Level 2 vest (no stab protection), but we mainly rely on strength in numbers (12-15 for a crowd of 586 max)
    I'm in the same boat. plain clothed with no weapons only handcuffs. (We don;t even wear vests). Worse is we cannot rely on strength in numbers because we usually work alone. I'm 51 now & have been doing this for 30 years. I've smartened up in the last 5 years. I will no longer attempt to physically break up a fight alone. I will let them know I'm calling 9-1-1. I have gotten flack from other employees about not getting involved physically but I ask them, what am I supposed to do, throw my walkie-talkie at them? Physically holding one person can get that person seriously injured if the other person is not controlled. I could then get sued! I don't feel ashamed about not getting physically involved. Our police force has a few solo cars per station. These Officers are not allowed (by union contract) to respond to any dangerous call alone even though they have guns. I was in a situation once where I was struggling in the front porch of the hotel with someone I was evicting. There was a solo Officer sitting in a car across the street watching. He would not get out to help me until another car arrived. He should be the embarrased pne!

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  • DMS 525
    replied
    This relates to another post in this forum, regarding wearing of nameplates. Where I have found that to be a plus is when I was a supervisor, and someone had a complaint about one of my officers, I'd ask them his/her name and/or badge number. If they say they can't give me a name or number, my reply could be "Bullsh*t!"

    If I hired security, I'd want the people wearing their nameplates, so once in a while I can put a face to a name. Bridges a lot of gaps, and saves a lot of needless hassle.

    In regards to personal protection, one should always keep their own personal field notebook, and record EVERYTRHING! Especialy threats, no matter how petty, then get down all the information you can about that person, especially what car they drive and all. If you have an encounter away from the job, you can refer to your notebook and identify the culprit.

    Leave a comment:


  • BoyInBlue
    replied
    Originally posted by ValleyOne
    So, your sneaking up on a fight between two guys-probably drunk, or getting there-YOU can cuff him up WITHOUT a fight? What if the 'aggressor' is actually the one defending himself, and he just so happened to gain the upper hand in his defense?

    Wait, here's a better question; What if it's a knife fight? You stated your required to go completely unarmed, by who? The bar owner? Do you mean nothing, but handcuffs? Not smart in a bar setting, but then again that's bouncing...

    I would SUGGEST announce your presence, give verbal commands, ("SECURITY!! BREAK IT UP OR YOU BOTH GO TO JAIL!!!).You keep saying "we" so why break into Ninja Mode, just you and your partner(s) grab one of the fighters, then divide and conquer? (Seperate, detain, sort it out)

    It looks like your trying a sneaky way of controlling the situation (kudoes for thinking outside the box), but honestly your dealing with a lot of people that have a lot of experience on their hands. If this method was tried and true, you wouldn't getting this much 'discussion' over it, would you?

    Personally, I HATE bouncing bars and flat out refuse to do them, again.
    Good points there. And yes all we carry is handcuffs. CA Law: guns and batons are out because we go plain clothes, mace is out (too crowded), electric weapons would be nice but against company policy, knifes are out too.

    I personally wear a Level 2 vest (no stab protection), but we mainly rely on strength in numbers (12-15 for a crowd of 586 max)

    Leave a comment:


  • ValleyOne
    replied
    Originally posted by dannyr619
    Unfortunately we are required to go completely unarmed in the nightclub. There are at least 3 fights a night and we get paid the big bucks ( sarcasm) to break them up.

    I think we are comparing Apples and Oranges here, but my point was if you sneak up behind a guy without announcing anything you can cuff him up WITHOUT a "fight."
    So, your sneaking up on a fight between two guys-probably drunk, or getting there-YOU can cuff him up WITHOUT a fight? What if the 'aggressor' is actually the one defending himself, and he just so happened to gain the upper hand in his defense?

    Wait, here's a better question; What if it's a knife fight? You stated your required to go completely unarmed, by who? The bar owner? Do you mean nothing, but handcuffs? Not smart in a bar setting, but then again that's bouncing...

    I would SUGGEST announce your presence, give verbal commands, ("SECURITY!! BREAK IT UP OR YOU BOTH GO TO JAIL!!!).You keep saying "we" so why break into Ninja Mode, just you and your partner(s) grab one of the fighters, then divide and conquer? (Seperate, detain, sort it out)

    It looks like your trying a sneaky way of controlling the situation (kudoes for thinking outside the box), but honestly your dealing with a lot of people that have a lot of experience on their hands. If this method was tried and true, you wouldn't getting this much 'discussion' over it, would you?

    Personally, I HATE bouncing bars and flat out refuse to do them, again.

    Leave a comment:


  • BadBoynMD
    replied
    Originally posted by dannyr619
    Unfortunately we are required to go completely unarmed in the nightclub. There are at least 3 fights a night and we get paid the big bucks ( sarcasm) to break them up.

    I think we are comparing Apples and Oranges here, but my point was if you sneak up behind a guy without announcing anything you can cuff him up WITHOUT a "fight."
    Yeah.. i've done the night/strip club gig a few times. Last one was a latin club..OMG. Anyway, back to topic.. i've seen some club security officers wearin the full belt (except the gun). None were trained, and sense its a largely spanish area there were never any lawsuits.

    It may work in your area, but out in this area it wouldn't work well. The adrenaline, adding in alcohol and MAYBE CDS don't see it. I've seen a police officer struggling to get a guy down and he did "sneak" on the guy. Took 3 cops and 5 addition bouncers to get the guy down.

    Leave a comment:


  • BoyInBlue
    replied
    Originally posted by BadBoynMD
    We're trained that if two idiots are kicking the snot out of each other. Then hey, give verbal commands to stop, call for additional units. Use spray if necessary.. getting "hands on" with two idiots can turn extremely bad VERY fast. For all you know they BOTH may turn on you. You're intentions are to go home at the end of your shift. What if this person is a gold glove boxer, or even a marital arts expert. Alot of things to consider when breaking up a fight.

    You're intentions to stop the fight maybe good intentions, but you always have to think about the aftermath. What if you break a finger? arm? In a heat of a fight the persons involved will have natural instinct to swing on someone that "grabs" them. Good luck in court with the "rolling eyes"
    Unfortunately we are required to go completely unarmed in the nightclub. There are at least 3 fights a night and we get paid the big bucks ( sarcasm) to break them up.

    I think we are comparing Apples and Oranges here, but my point was if you sneak up behind a guy without announcing anything you can cuff him up WITHOUT a "fight."

    Leave a comment:


  • BadBoynMD
    replied
    Originally posted by dannyr619
    Look... in some situations you need to do what you need to do to stay safe. In my specific example: male vs. male - two S.O. responding. I would physically restrain the first subject from behind while telling him "security, stop resisting, security, stop resisting." This way I already have his joint locked, and can begin apply pain compliance before this guy even knows what hit him.

    I am not going to run up to the fight (with my CA Powers of Arrest Manual in hand ) and announce my presents and intentions. Now I would have to approach the first subject from the front, giving me a huge disadvantage, plus there is another combative male to my 6 that I have to worry about...
    We're trained that if two idiots are kicking the snot out of each other. Then hey, give verbal commands to stop, call for additional units. Use spray if necessary.. getting "hands on" with two idiots can turn extremely bad VERY fast. For all you know they BOTH may turn on you. You're intentions are to go home at the end of your shift. What if this person is a gold glove boxer, or even a marital arts expert. Alot of things to consider when breaking up a fight.

    You're intentions to stop the fight maybe good intentions, but you always have to think about the aftermath. What if you break a finger? arm? In a heat of a fight the persons involved will have natural instinct to swing on someone that "grabs" them. Good luck in court with the "rolling eyes"

    Leave a comment:


  • BoyInBlue
    replied
    Look... in some situations you need to do what you need to do to stay safe. In my specific example: male vs. male - two S.O. responding. I would physically restrain the first subject from behind while telling him "security, stop resisting, security, stop resisting." This way I already have his joint locked, and can begin apply pain compliance before this guy even knows what hit him.

    I am not going to run up to the fight (with my CA Powers of Arrest Manual in hand ) and announce my presents and intentions. Now I would have to approach the first subject from the front, giving me a huge disadvantage, plus there is another combative male to my 6 that I have to worry about...

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Read your CA Power of Arrest manual. (Which I have sitting next to me.) You must give advance notice of your arrest before using force, else you are illegally using force.

    Remember, a person who does not know you are using lawful force against them has the right to defend themselves from perceived attack. Especially if you are not a peace officer.

    If some guy came up to you and grabbed you, you would put them down. You are justified in this unless you have reason to believe that their force is lawful. A security uniform does not have the powers of a peace officer's uniform (and criminal immunity) behind it.

    In many states, a guy can get off "resisting arrest" by saying, "I didn't know he was a cop."

    Leave a comment:


  • BoyInBlue
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    Depending on what jurisdiction you're in, that's illegal. Always check your local laws, or in states where there is no private arrest law, your case law.
    Why would this be illegal? Security generally has no more arrest powers than any other citizen.


    You witness a misdemeanor in progress (the fight), you DETAIN the more aggressive party (putting someone in handcuffs is not always an arrest), then IF the other party involved wants to make a citizens arrest it is done by THEM.

    With only two officers responding to a two person fight, why would you want to give them heads up as to what is about to happen???

    Leave a comment:


  • FlacoFI
    replied
    While on the personal-security advice subject I would like to add something myself. The district I supervise includes some of the worst areas in Miami-Dade (I work the night shift). My advice to anyone doing the similar would be to remember that there are A LOT of people who hate cops and could confuse you're patrol as a police car. I watch who is around me at a red light, if anyone is following me, and I keep a list of what gas stations I know are safe to stop at for a break. I've had a lot of people walk up to me during a red light thinking I'm a cop and telling me about someone who robbed them or beat them up ect...

    Leave a comment:


  • MiB Security
    replied
    Originally posted by Mall Director
    Check who is in your parking lot when you get off shift, and always change your path home when leaving. Keep an eye on the rear view mirror, and make a few extra turns or a stop at a gas station for a cup of coffee.. You will find out quickly if you have a guest wishing to follow you home!
    Mall Director... VERY GOOD ADVICE! I have worked at a few clubs in DC and Atlanta where the guy you tossed out 3 hours before is still off in the parking lot or garage waiting to have words with you when you get off work! Most clubs I worked at did not allow you to carry firearms while working. I always armed up at home. De-armed at the club security office and then armed up again before my walk to my car between 3 and 6 am. Do not allow yourself to become a statistic!

    Leave a comment:

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