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  • #46
    Originally posted by wilrobnson
    Canada had 3,500 shootings in 2005, that means there was one shooting for every 9,428 Canadian citizens.

    The US had 10,000 shootings in 2005, one shooting for every 30,000 US citizens.
    Where did you get your Canadian stats from?

    http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/legal01.htm
    I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
    Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by HotelSecurity
      Where did you get your Canadian stats from?

      http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/legal01.htm
      Yes...but the table you cite just gives the homicides by shooting. He said "shootings", which I presume means "all shootings", not merely "homicides by shooting". I'm not sure where he got his numbers, but it's not hard to imagine that there were probably at least 5 nonfatal shootings for every homicide (658 x 5 = 3290) because in the US it's more like 11 to 1, and so even being conservative at 5 to 1 (in other words, giving Canadians credit for being more accurate than Americans ) you would have the kinds of numbers he cites quite easily, no?
      Last edited by SecTrainer; 04-21-2007, 03:40 AM.
      "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

      "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

      "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

      "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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      • #48
        Originally posted by SecTrainer
        Yes...but that's just the homicides by shooting. He said "shootings", not "homicides by shooting". I'm not sure where he got his numbers, but it's not hard to imagine that there were probably at least 5 nonfatal shootings for every homicide (658 x 5 = 3290) because in the US it's more like 11 to 1, and so even being conservative at 5 to 1 (in other words, giving Canadians credit for being more accurate than Americans ) you would have the kinds of numbers he cites quite easily, no?
        Or maybe due to our free health care more gun shot victims survive?
        I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
        Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by HotelSecurity
          Or maybe due to our free health care more gun shot victims survive?
          Or maybe due to the free health care no one knows they've died? They just sit out in the waiting room and turn into a pile of dust, until finally the janitor comes along and sweeps them up.

          Just jokin'...I couldn't resist.
          "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

          "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

          "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

          "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by ff000525
            We're not an armed society, an armed society is one where every one owns a gun and carries it. Of all of my friends probably only 10 of them actually own a firearm and I live in WI which is a big hunting state (not saying I have hundreds of friends, just saying the lot of them don't own a gun). Its all the negative media that the US puts out that makes it seem we are an armed ruthless society. When I was overseas I learned that owning an AK was a status symbol and a must for being the head of a household. Now that was an armed society. I'm not going to get in a concealed carry or a second amendment debate but look at the shooting in the Salt Lake City mall and how the armed off duty police officer was able to slow down the shooter, he probably saved a lot of lives that day.
            You mean like in Iraq? I haven't seen politeness there either.
            Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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            • #51
              Originally posted by SecTrainer
              Very cogent, sir. Canada's gun laws have by no means solved the problem. They talk about this all the time in the papers, in fact, so we're not telling them anything they don't already know.

              The longer I live, the more I come to understand that firearms are a lot like locks and alarms. Responsible people use them responsibly as they were meant to be used - for protection. We could have a hundred billion guns in the United States, and that figure wouldn't mean a thing. It's just a typical "sound bite" that gun-control people think "sounds bad". To be sure, you can float figures like that around in the so-called "press", and few people will actually stop to ask just what they mean or how significant they are. We swallow just about everything whole nowadays, because we're too busy or too lazy to chew on it first.

              There are literally tens of thousands of crimes averted or interrupted by gun owners in the US every single year, but this never receives any press at all. Millions of guns were sold after 9/11, and the media predicted a tsunami of gun-related crimes, accidents and Emergency Rooms stacked to the rafters with dead children. Where are those media pundits now? Well...they're too busy predicting the next disaster to notice that they're just not very good at predicting anything.

              Do we have incidents and gun crimes? Of course we do, but we have even more crimes committed with other weapons - knives, clubs, pipes, bricks, baseball bats, golf clubs, concrete blocks, rope, duct tape, screwdrivers, monkey wrenches, pool cues, beer bottles, bar stools, insecticides, prescription medications, bathtubs filled with water, swimming pools, motor vehicles and even pillows.
              So, will the pillow-control crowd please stand up? I have several pillows that I need to register before I'm arrested for owning them without a license. As for my golf clubs, any of my golfing buddies will tell you that they truly are lethal weapons in my hands, especially if you happen to be standing on any fairway except the one I'm playing. If you're standing on my fairway, and that includes 20 feet in front of the tee, you're perfectly safe because I'll never hit you in a million years. FORE!!
              An oversimplification of the facts. Guns are different from other weapons because they make it easy to kill many people, especially with clips that hold 15 rounds. The other weapons allow people to overpower the perpetrator so that we don't have 30 bodies in 30 minutes.
              Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

              Comment


              • #52
                Having gun laws is one thing, enforcing them is another. Ultimately, the only true gun control is self-restraint and responsible use. But the fact remains that we live in a violent society, which will only continue to get worse as time passes and we continue to ignore the root causes of the issues existing.

                It is interesting that the common denominator in the school shootings is that of "bully" tactics [real or perceived] that drive the perp over the edge. We saw this in the Columbine shooting and the Tech School shooting, just like many of the others.

                Yet, rather than focusing on these kinds of issues and correcting such, we turn to gun control laws, as if that is going to somehow solve the problem existing, when clearly it never has.

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Christopherstjo
                  Having gun laws is one thing, enforcing them is another. Ultimately, the only true gun control is self-restraint and responsible use. But the fact remains that we live in a violent society, which will only continue to get worse as time passes and we continue to ignore the root causes of the issues existing.

                  It is interesting that the common denominator in the school shootings is that of "bully" tactics [real or perceived] that drive the perp over the edge. We saw this in the Columbine shooting and the Tech School shooting, just like many of the others.

                  Yet, rather than focusing on these kinds of issues and correcting such, we turn to gun control laws, as if that is going to somehow solve the problem existing, when clearly it never has.
                  Exactly. It's too late for the US. The guns are ALREADY out there. Even if all gun production ceased immediately the sheer number of guns all ready produced is more than enough to keep guns available for anyone who really wants to get one, legal or not. The only option the US has now is to prevent such attacks from occurring. The odds are not in our favor.
                  Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Mr. Security
                    Exactly. It's too late for the US. The guns are ALREADY out there. Even if all gun production ceased immediately the sheer number of guns all ready produced is more than enough to keep guns available for anyone who really wants to get one, legal or not. The only option the US has now is to prevent such attacks from occurring. The odds are not in our favor.
                    It is clear that the rate of civilian possession of guns far out numbers those held by law enforcement. Thus, I tend to believe that gun control laws are purely for the sake of appeasing those griping the most so politians can look good; its' a hot button issue in politics espeically around re-election time.

                    In reality, however, I think they are useless when, as you pointed out, there are many ways to get them illegally.

                    The fact remains that so long as society believes it is permissible and acceptable to abuse [physically, emotionally, mentally, sexually and verbally] others, then we will continue to see folks going over the edge and on shooting rampaids. The likes of which are condoned by the fact that we pay so little attention to these issues unless and until some school shooting occurs. But then the attention fades away and back to the status quo we go until the next shooting occurs and more useless gun laws are passed.
                    Last edited by Christopherstjo; 04-21-2007, 02:12 PM.

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                    • #55
                      If I remember correctly, the Columbine incident suffered from the "Trenchcoat Mafia" effect (from which its named), where a "maligned social group" is blamed for the attack. The two shooters were never part of the "trenchcoat mafia," nor were they picked on in school. They were rather popular.

                      If I remember correctly, there were reports that a student who was friends with one of the shooters was allowed to leave, and another one was "saved" from bullies, who the shooter then killed in the bathroom.

                      Before we even knew who the shooter at VT was, Jack Thompson was blaming violent video games -- specifically Valve Corporation's Counter-Strike. Dr. Phil, for even more media vulture opportunity, also blamed video games in general.

                      There are a thousand "things" that "might" of contributed to this. Personally, I expected Jack to blame Starcraft cause the shooter was a Korean National and we all know that those Koreans are addicted to Starcraft. He surprised me only in that he blamed CS instead of Starcraft.

                      The reality is, a man is to blame for this shooting. A man with a gun. More and more, people are looking for something to blame it on, so that when its their turn they can nullify personal responsibility.

                      Three youths tormented, beat, and killed a "hobo" in Milwaukee. They claimed that they were perfectly normal teens, and suddenly they felt "possessed" by the Grand Theft Autos, and they just "acted out what you do in the game."

                      Further investigation revealed they were not "normal teens," they had long histories of violence, and this was a calculated gambit to limit their personal and criminal liability. "If I blame it on video games, then its not my fault."
                      Some Kind of Commando Leader

                      "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                      • #56
                        Nathan

                        In both he Columbine and Tech School shootings, there were multiple student recounts of the perp's having been subjected to bully tacitcs. It became a focual point issue, after the Columbine shooting.

                        I lived in Colorado when the Columbine shooting took place; I also attended this school in years pass.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Christopherstjo
                          Nathan

                          In both he Columbine and Tech School shootings, there were multiple student recounts of the perp's having been subjected to bully tacitcs. It became a focual point issue, after the Columbine shooting.

                          I lived in Colorado when the Columbine shooting took place; I also attended this school in years pass.
                          Where'd you live in Colorado? I resided in the "Dark City" (Pueblo) for about 2 years. I'm not sure why people called it that, as it was actually fairly pleasant, unless it was because there was virtually NOTHING to do there. Deadest town I ever struck.
                          "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                          "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                          "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                          "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Alright, here we go.

                            http://www.slate.com/id/2099203/sidebar/2099208/

                            "The story was that Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris, a pair of lonely, outcast Goths, tore through the school hunting down jocks to settle a long-running feud between athletes and the Trenchcoat Mafia. After years of bullying, the pair finally snapped and turned on their tormenters with automatic weapons and pipe bombs. They arrived at the school with a hit list of victims, including despised minorities, Christians, and athletes."

                            Right? Wrong.

                            They tried to blow up a cafeteria. They killed indiscriminately, except for those they knew. (Maybe two tops) Everyone from the evangelical Christians ("Do you believe in God?") to who knows what else have tried to tack their social agendas onto "school massacres," and lo and behold, it keeps happening.

                            How do you justify "In the weeks following the shootings, media reports about two students who portrayed them as part of a "goth cult" and outcast "nerds". Later, such characterizations were found to be untrue as both Harris and Klebold are documented to have had a close circle of friends and a wider informal social group; by no means were they isolated."

                            While Wikipedia isn't the best source, this article has survived vetting through the years and is well sourced.

                            We're gonna see more interesting crap about the VT shooter. It'll take years to debunk it all.
                            Some Kind of Commando Leader

                            "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Video games can contribute to violent acts in that they can be used to train the motor skills of individuals who use firearms. The military has been quick to recognize the value of computer simulated weapons in their training curriculums. The other downside is that these games desensitize young ones from the shock and repulsiveness that is normally experienced by non-violent people. They no longer cringe at the bloody realistic images portrayed in the game. They become accustomed to violence and begin to see it as "normal."
                              Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Mr. Security
                                Video games can contribute to violent acts in that they can be used to train the motor skills of individuals who use firearms. The military has been quick to recognize the value of computer simulated weapons in their training curriculums. The other downside is that these games desensitize young ones from the shock and repulsiveness that is normally experienced by non-violent people. They no longer cringe at the bloody realistic images portrayed in the game. They become accustomed to violence and begin to see it as "normal."
                                You know, it's very funny. Producers of all sorts of media aimed at children and teens will hotly deny that media CAUSES or CONTRIBUTES to behavior. "Stop picking on us!" they moan. "We only REFLECT what's going on in society - we don't have anything to do with CAUSING it".

                                ...and yet the game, music and other media producers spend $millions advertising their products. Now, the whole point of advertising is to influence behavior. So if media doesn't influence behavior why are they wasting this kind of money? You wouldn't expect to see a single ad from them...if what they say is true.

                                And, it gets funnier. Very often, you'll find "educational specialists" coming onto FoxNews, CNN, etc. and saying that "the influence of the media on behavior hasn't been proven"...and yet the expenditures within their own field to develop "media-rich" educational materials - including games not unlike the commercial products - is simply staggering. Again, the point of education is to influence behavior. (Behavioral change is one of the "outcomes" of education, supposedly.) So, if these forms of media do not influence behavior (produce educational "outcomes") why are THEY wasting their money, too?

                                Of course media of all kinds influence people's behavior, and probably young people more than any others! We all know this - including the producers of these media products. Kids are "blank slates", so to speak, and the media moguls can't wait to write their messages, for better or worse, on those blank slates. We know this not from what the media moguls or the education folks say, but from what they themselves spend money on!

                                Incidentally, this is a good general principle to incorporate into your analysis of any organization - for instance, a prospective employer. Forget what they say they believe in ("We highly prize our security officers, Mr. Jones")...find out what they spend their money on, because THAT is what they truly believe in and value. If they "prize their officers", it will be reflected in the money they spend on them relative to what other companies spend.

                                You can learn this kind of information from public sources (like the EDGAR database) if the company is required to file SEC documents, or if it's a privately held company, by direct questioning during your interview. Just ask: "What percentage of your net income does your company spend on officer training (equipment, benefits, whatever), Mr. Personnel Man?".

                                Personally, I'd be mighty impressed if a job candidate ever asked me a question like that, and if I didn't know the answer I'd get it for him.
                                Last edited by SecTrainer; 04-21-2007, 04:34 PM.
                                "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                                "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                                "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                                "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                                Comment

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