Virginia Tech Shooting

[HotelSecurity]

HS Is this the one you are referring to?

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-70-398/...real_massacre/

No - the one I'm referring to occured last September

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawson_College_shooting

The one you mention happened many years before the Dawson one. At that time the police response was different. The responding officers would form a security perimeter & wait for the SWAT team. Since then they no longer wait.

[LPCap]

Anyways, I know if the day time they have the chief, and detective or 1, maybe a reserve or 2, and a number of unarmed security...... but only 5 or 6 police officers per shift? I was amazed. If you count staff, VT has a steady population of 30,000, with over 2600 acres and 100 buildings. That's a monster campus, and the handful of people they have on duty is wholly inadequate.

That's what happens when you go cheap I guess.

You are correct, it is a monster campus. VTPD has around 5 officers a shift, 1 k-9 and a few detectives. I believe there are only 39 sworn officers on staff. VT also has a very small security staff. Security works overnight shifts and they they carry all but the weapon. In fact, the security staff has very similar uniforms to that of the police department, but the patches read Virginia Tech Security.

[LPCap]

Here is a link to a security officer job posting at VT.

https://jobs.vt.edu/applicants/jsp/shared/frameset/Frameset.jsp?time=1177038915820

[HotelSecurity]

VT also has a very small security staff. Security works overnight shifts and they they carry all but the weapon. In fact, the security staff has very similar uniforms to that of the police department, but the patches read Virginia Tech Security.

This is dangerous! Our transit security in Montreal are armed only with PR-24s. Their uniforms used to look like the police, the only difference was their hat badge. Now they have a navy blue unform while the police wear light blue. They still only have the PR-24s but also wear stab proof vests. I have never heard of any of them being killed although they are attacked regularly. Starting June 1st they will be cut back. A special unit of the police will began patrolling the métro.

[james2go30]

hey

Since the shooting the cellphone comm center were I am posted has began upgrading security, hell the place has only had security for a month anyway, but now after the shooting at VT the client and our company drastically changing access control procedures and talking about adding extra rovers. Not a bad idea to me.

[N. A. Corbier]

This is dangerous! Our transit security in Montreal are armed only with PR-24s. Their uniforms used to look like the police, the only difference was their hat badge. Now they have a navy blue unform while the police wear light blue. They still only have the PR-24s but also wear stab proof vests. I have never heard of any of them being killed although they are attacked regularly. Starting June 1st they will be cut back. A special unit of the police will began patrolling the métro.

Honestly, the NYPD Auxiliary shooting shows that even if you don't look like the police, you look like a symbol of authority and you're going to be attacked anyway.

People who do bad things don't care if your badge/patch says "Security Guard," "Security Officer," "Special Police Officer," "City of BobDoleVille Police," or "Janitor." You are the Man, and you are going to pay.

[FederalSecurity]

As N.A. stated, no matter what type of uniform a Security Officer dons at

the beginning of the shift; if the Officer is armed, then the Officer owes it to

him/herself to know that firearm to the point of extreme proficiency. This

coincides with the very concept of accepting an armed position of

duty. There are reasons why these positions are armed. If an Officer fears

that his duties will place him/her in danger, then that should be

adequate motivation to improve one's skills.

[Bill Warnock]

A TRAGEDY REMAINS A TRAGEDYUNTIL IT BECOMES A LEARNING TOOL

The tragedy of 32 persons being murdered and one committing suicide is almost too horrible to contemplate. So are the multiple shootings of supervisors and coworkers in the workplace not to mention other schools. What does this have to do with anything? Cho Seung-Hui He just snapped? Right? Wrong! That is not how violence in the workplace happens.

Doctor Park Elliott Dietz, MD MPH PhD, stated quite succinctly that one doesn’t just snap. There are indicators or clues to an impending tragedy. We need to reread Doctor Dietz’s final comment , “By talking to the man and finding out he’s completely crazy. He’d tell you that the spirit of Malcolm X had taken over his brain and the spirits are screaming ... we’d call that a clue in psychiatry.”

In the shooter’s life there were indicators or clues of impending tragedy. They were not ignored by all of those who had been concerned for him. Despite their best efforts, existing federal law prevent more dynamic action. Virginia Tech University, Blacksburg Virginia as well as the whole world are in shock. So the tragedy will remain a tragedy until it becomes a learning tool. In that University, as in many other universities, there are other Chos’. In businesses and industries throughout the country there have been tragic Chos or Bills and they still are. We may know people and we may try desperately not to hear or see their pain or their problem. There is a tragedy waiting to happen rather than a learning tool waiting to be used.

A knee jerk reaction has been presented to ban all firearms from the hands of those judged mental defectives. Who and how are those with mental problems identified, then what? The firearm is but a means to an end. Next time, no firearm, a bomb, chemical attack, the list is endless.

The City of Blacksburg, Virginia is as unique as is the Postal Service or any number of companies. The Postal Service and a number of companies have turned their tragedies into learning tools. For the some, a tragedy remains a tragedy. For others a tragedy has yet to happen.

A tragedy will remain a tragedy until it becomes a learning tool. An enlightened society will make it so.

Enjoy the day,
Bill

[SecTrainer]

In a way, I believe that part of what we're seeing in the country now is the effects of the lawyers, who offer to sue anyone who attempts to make any sort of "judgment" about another individual even when they have a legitimate interest in doing so, and even when common sense screams that such a judgment is correct.

They sue employers, for instance, if they provide a job reference about a former employee that contains negative information, so that employers are afraid to say anything at all. As a result, we have violent employees going from job to job while their new employers remain unaware of their tendencies until it's too late. Yes, "the truth is a defense" against such "defamation" suits, but the cost to the employer is still horrendous even when they win, so they just adopt a policy to reveal nothing more than the dates of employment and the job title.

One can only imagine, in this litigious society, that a university might well believe that if it took any steps to exclude an individual that it feared might be a danger, short of that individual making a direct and explicit threat, they would be sued.

I think it would be a very good idea if, with the realization that our young people are so very vulnerable, schools and universities were explicitly granted immunity from lawsuits for damages arising out of any reasonable steps they might take to protect them.

Such legislation should provide, explicitly:

1. That the burden of proving "unreasonableness" must fall to the plaintiff.

2. That both "unreasonableness" AND damages must be proven in a preliminary hearing by the plaintiff before the school or university is even required to make a reply.

3. That treble costs plus $100,000 in damages would be assessed to the plaintiff if the defendant school or university prevails at trial.

In other words, I'd raise the bar so high that no lawyer would touch such a case unless the case were truly so egregious that there was no question that the plaintiff would prevail.

[Black Caesar]

In a way, I believe that part of what we're seeing in the country now is the effects of the lawyers, who offer to sue anyone who attempts to make any sort of "judgment" about another individual even when they have a legitimate interest in doing so, and even when common sense screams that such a judgment is correct.

They sue employers, for instance, if they provide a job reference about a former employee that contains negative information, so that employers are afraid to say anything at all. As a result, we have violent employees going from job to job while their new employers remain unaware of their tendencies until it's too late. Yes, "the truth is a defense" against such "defamation" suits, but the cost to the employer is still horrendous even when they win, so they just adopt a policy to reveal nothing more than the dates of employment and the job title.

One can only imagine, in this litigious society, that a university might well believe that if it took any steps to exclude an individual that it feared might be a danger, short of that individual making a direct and explicit threat, they would be sued.

This is much of the case, fear of litigation, and fear of bad publicity (because this affects enrollment).

The other part is the human angle. The Administrators themselves.

"Academics" tend to be very optimistic people (which makes them the exact opposites of people in Public Safety, who can tend to be a "little" pessimistic LOL), they tend to seek out "the best in people" and think anyone can be salvaged with enough work and care.

Time and again I would drag someone to the Dean of Students. In my mind, they should be gone, just gone, and right now. Time and again, I'd see the Dean try to talk sense to the student, or refer them for counseling, or whatever, but wouldn't kick the student out.

The bad thing is most times she was right, only some of the time did we end up kicking the student after much trying to get them on the straight path. Whereas I would err on the side of caution and make the student seek an education elsewhere, she puts alot of effort into the person and it works mostly. This only encourages the Dean of Students to keep doing this lol. Nothing reinforces your belief system like success.

Which scares the mess out of us (Campus Police) because one day we could face "the one that got away" like VT just did.

I think it would be a very good idea if, with the realization that our young people are so very vulnerable, schools and universities were explicitly granted immunity from lawsuits for damages arising out of any reasonable steps they might take to protect them.

Such legislation should provide, explicitly:

1. That the burden of proving "unreasonableness" must fall to the plaintiff.

2. That both "unreasonableness" AND damages must be proven in a preliminary hearing by the plaintiff before the school or university is even required to make a reply.

3. That treble costs plus $100,000 in damages would be assessed to the plaintiff if the defendant school or university prevails at trial.

In other words, I'd raise the bar so high that no lawyer would touch such a case unless the case were truly so egregious that there was no question that the plaintiff would prevail.

That would sure help.

[SecTrainer]

This is much of the case, fear of litigation, and fear of bad publicity (because this affects enrollment).

The other part is the human angle. The Administrators themselves.

"Academics" tend to be very optimistic people (which makes them the exact opposites of people in Public Safety, who can tend to be a "little" pessimistic LOL), they tend to seek out "the best in people" and think anyone can be salvaged with enough work and care.

Time and again I would drag someone to the Dean of Students. In my mind, they should be gone, just gone, and right now. Time and again, I'd see the Dean try to talk sense to the student, or refer them for counseling, or whatever, but wouldn't kick the student out.

The bad thing is most times she was right, only some of the time did we end up kicking the student after much trying to get them on the straight path. Whereas I would err on the side of caution and make the student seek an education elsewhere, she puts alot of effort into the person and it works mostly. This only encourages the Dean of Students to keep doing this lol. Nothing reinforces your belief system like success.

Which scares the mess out of us (Campus Police) because one day we could face "the one that got away" like VT just did.

Brilliant comments. I almost forgot that you must see issues like this all the time.

To be sure, some students are just "odd". We've all known the little bookworm who scuttles around campus with his head down, carrying his briefcase and talking to no one.

And, we all know that school administrators and teachers are "optimistic", as you put it, tending to see the good in everyone and wanting to believe nothing bad about anyone. I grew up with a teacher AND a college dean for parents, and I took advantage of these traits to "go to the library" on school nights and stay out until 1 AM because it apprently never occurred to them that LIBRARIES DON'T STAY OPEN THAT LATE! They must have thought I was a hopeless dunce when, after all that "studying", I'd bring home C's on my report card.

However, we need better ways to distinguish the "odd" from the "dangerous", and we should listen to the signals that everyone can always see very clearly in hindsight.

[OccamsRazor]

...stay out until 1 AM because it apprently never occurred to them that LIBRARIES DON'T STAY OPEN THAT LATE!

Ours did. Of course, it was co-located with an authentic-style Irish pub.

I love studying.

[SecTrainer]

Ours did. Of course, it was co-located with an authentic-style Irish pub.

I love studying.

So (glug) do (chug) I (slurp). I could honestly say that I'd spent hours over my books because I stashed them under the bar stool.

[OccamsRazor]

French language TV stations from Montreal have even sent reporters down there.

250 million guns in the US ..........................

Canada had 3,500 shootings in 2005, that means there was one shooting for every 9,428 Canadian citizens.

The US had 10,000 shootings in 2005, one shooting for every 30,000 US citizens.

[SecTrainer]

Canada had 3,500 shootings in 2005, that means there was one shooting for every 9,428 Canadian citizens.

The US had 10,000 shootings in 2005, one shooting for every 30,000 US citizens.

Very cogent, sir. Canada's gun laws have by no means solved the problem. They talk about this all the time in the papers, in fact, so we're not telling them anything they don't already know.

The longer I live, the more I come to understand that firearms are a lot like locks and alarms. Responsible people use them responsibly as they were meant to be used - for protection. We could have a hundred billion guns in the United States, and that figure wouldn't mean a thing. It's just a typical "sound bite" that gun-control people think "sounds bad". To be sure, you can float figures like that around in the so-called "press", and few people will actually stop to ask just what they mean or how significant they are. We swallow just about everything whole nowadays, because we're too busy or too lazy to chew on it first.

There are literally tens of thousands of crimes averted or interrupted by gun owners in the US every single year, but this never receives any press at all. Millions of guns were sold after 9/11, and the media predicted a tsunami of gun-related crimes, accidents and Emergency Rooms stacked to the rafters with dead children. Where are those media pundits now? Well...they're too busy predicting the next disaster to notice that they're just not very good at predicting anything.

Do we have incidents and gun crimes? Of course we do, but we have even more crimes committed with other weapons - knives, clubs, pipes, bricks, baseball bats, golf clubs, concrete blocks, rope, duct tape, screwdrivers, monkey wrenches, pool cues, beer bottles, bar stools, insecticides, prescription medications, bathtubs filled with water, swimming pools, motor vehicles and even pillows.

So, will the pillow-control crowd please stand up? I have several pillows that I need to register before I'm arrested for owning them without a license. As for my golf clubs, any of my golfing buddies will tell you that they truly are lethal weapons in my hands, especially if you happen to be standing on any fairway except the one I'm playing. If you're standing on my fairway, and that includes 20 feet in front of the tee, you're perfectly safe because I'll never hit you in a million years. FORE!!