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  • #46
    SecTrainer

    No, you have continously skirted the request I have made of you to come forward with objective data to support your claims. I am not saying that your critisims are invalid or such that I have not already encountered before, to the contrary, as clearly I address your critisims in my program outline because they have been brought up one time or another, during the past five years.

    In your oringinal post, I believe, you based your critisims, in part, on your alleged "research' you claim you have done in regard to DHS matters. It seems to me that if you have done "research" then you should have no difficulty in presenting at least some objective data independant from your own "personal opinions" and yet, you consistently refuse to do so.

    Hence, while you accuse me of not "dialoging" with you and failing to give you objective data, which by the way I have, you are guilty of your own accusations. Conveniently, however, you ignore this fact and grossly fail to practice what you so freely preach.
    Last edited by Christopherstjo; 04-14-2007, 12:55 AM.

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    • #47
      I have clearly laid down the precondition for any further dialog between you and I, Mr. Cross. Until then, please sit down and be quiet or address your remarks to others on the forum who are willing to put up with you. I am not.
      Last edited by SecTrainer; 04-14-2007, 02:22 AM.
      "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

      "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

      "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

      "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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      • #48
        Originally posted by SecTrainer
        I have clearly laid down the precondition for any further dialog between you and I, Mr. Cross. Until then, please sit down and be quiet or address your remarks to others on the forum who are willing to put up with you. I am not.
        I reiterate:

        Originally posted by Christopherstjo
        In your oringinal post, I believe, you based your critisims, in part, on your alleged "research' you claim you have done in regard to DHS matters. It seems to me that if you have done "research" then you should have no difficulty in presenting at least some objective data independant from your own "personal opinions" and yet, you consistently refuse to do so.
        Originally posted by Christopherstjo
        Hence, while you accuse me of not "dialoging" with you and failing to give you objective data, which by the way I have, you are guilty of your own accusations. Conveniently, however, you ignore this fact and grossly fail to practice what you so freely preach.
        Practice what you preach and demand SecTrainer
        Last edited by Christopherstjo; 04-14-2007, 03:05 AM.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
          There's a huge, huge, "discussion" on this topic over at Officer.com... I threw my three cents in, cause any time I type that much on O.com its more than two.
          I don't know why security people want to spend time on that site. They don't want us there and treat posts that defend the security profession with contempt. In fact, they can't even get along with each other.
          Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Mr. Security
            I don't know why security people want to spend time on that site. They don't want us there and treat posts that defend the security profession with contempt. In fact, they can't even get along with each other.
            I spend very little time there, but disagree somewhat with your characterization.

            First, there's a great deal of useful information to be gained if you know how and what to look for, making it a resource that I don't think we should simply ignore.

            Second, most of the hostility that I've observed has been in response to posts by security officers that "defend the security profession" in a defensive, insulting or hostile way themselves, as Mr. Cross has done so thoroughly.

            Yes, there are some copper yahoos just like there are yahoos on our side, but just as we would hope "police visitors" to our site would overlook those people, IMHO I think we should overlook the copper yahoos on O.com and not let them (and they are the minority there, as they are here) drive us away from a valuable resource.
            "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

            "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

            "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

            "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by SecTrainer
              I spend very little time there, but disagree somewhat with your characterization.

              First, there's a great deal of useful information to be gained if you know how and what to look for, making it a resource that I don't think we should simply ignore.

              Second, most of the hostility that I've observed has been in response to posts by security officers that "defend the security profession" in a defensive, insulting or hostile way themselves, as Mr. Cross has done so thoroughly.

              Yes, there are some copper yahoos just like there are yahoos on our side, but just as we would hope "police visitors" to our site would overlook those people, IMHO I think we should overlook the copper yahoos on O.com and not let them (and they are the minority there, as they are here) drive us away from a valuable resource.
              I agree that some of the articles are informative. I just didn't care for the forums. Perhaps it's improved since I last visited. I became a member with a pro-law enforcement attitude. However, the negative attitude towards any post by security that disagreed with mainstream police viewpoint became unbearable and I stopped playing nice. The end result was what I expected, namely, an inactive account status. If that’s the price for defending the security profession, then so be it.
              Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by SecTrainer
                Second, most of the hostility that I've observed has been in response to posts by security officers that "defend the security profession" in a defensive, insulting or hostile way themselves, as Mr. Cross has done so thoroughly.
                Care to support your allegation with facts, SecTrainer?

                Someone once said that when you pat a government official, executive or other like individual on the back and say "job well done" you are held in high regards, yet, to criticize, however artfully or inartfully done is to make you a pain in the butt with nothing worthwhile to say.

                In general I do not believe there is anything wrong with defending the security profession in assertive, and at times, even aggressive ways. Our profession has long since taken the full blunt of the dissent, anger, hostility and insults of others including the police, clients, employers and the general public.

                It is not surprising, therefore, that there are those in our profession who have had enough of this kind of disrespectful treatment and are willing to stand their ground and defend both the profession and the security officers. Perhaps if more did we would not have the kinds of problems and face the gross contempt and disrespect by others that we do, in our profession.

                As I have stated before, no industry or profession is immune to having both good and bad employee's, and the security profession is certainly no excpetion. This does not mean, however, that we are any more or less valuable than police in the scope of protecting public safety, to the contrary. Yet, where others feel free to lash out with hostility and insults they should not be surprised when others respond in the same or stand their ground to defend. The difference between the two is that security officers are expected to just suck it up and deal with it; having no right to state ones opinion, facts or to defend against being attacked, and too many security officers are complacent; doing exactly what they are expected. Is it any wonder, therefore, why we are subjected to gross systemetic abuses and treated with such contempt? I think not.
                Last edited by Christopherstjo; 04-14-2007, 11:13 AM.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Christopherstjo
                  Care to support your allegation with facts, SecTrainer?

                  Someone once said that when you pat a government official, executive or other like individual on the back and say "job well done" you are held in high regards, yet, to criticize, however artfully or inartfully done is to make you a pain in the butt with nothing worthwhile to say.

                  In general I do not believe there is anything wrong with defending the security profession in assertive, and at times, even aggressive ways. Our profession has long since taken the full blunt of the dissent, anger, hostility and insults of others including the police, clients, employers and the general public.

                  It is not surprising, therefore, that there are those in our profession who have had enough of this kind of disrespectful treatment and are willing to stand their ground and defend both the profession and the security officers. Perhaps if more did we would not have the kinds of problems and face the gross contempt and disrespect by others that we do, in our profession.

                  As I have stated before, no industry or profession is immune to having both good and bad employee's, and the security profession is certainly no excpetion. This does not mean, however, that we are any more or less valuable than police in the scope of protecting public safety, to the contrary. Yet, where others feel free to lash out with hostility and insults they should not be surprised when others respond in the same or stand their ground to defend. The difference between the two is that security officers are expected to just suck it up and deal with it; having no right to state ones opinion, facts or to defend against being attacked, and too many security officers are complacent; doing exactly what they are expected. Is it any wonder, therefore, why we are not treated with respect?
                  Years ago in both the civilian sector the thinking was anybody can be a police officer. You had very little ambition should you look to that type of employment after all all you needed was a badge and a gun. That was the generalized thinking until the middle 1960s when things started to change. Education and psychological testing were being ushered in. The shirters were on their way out. You no longer had to biggest and ready to club or shoot at the drop of the hat.
                  Private security at one time hired the brightest stars. Modern police technology had it start with Pinkerton who maintained photographs and fingerprints of criminals. Cal Crim Detective Agency from Cincinnati was the first in gathering information and photographs of body markings and tattoos. All private sectors initiatives.
                  As public law enforcement agencies gathered a foothold, private security became a business and competition drove down costs.
                  Today, look at all the retired federal agents who start a second career in the private sector.
                  Standards will improve as more and more tasks of protection will be assigned to the private sector. With added responsibilities will come better training better training begets better people and better people will receive better pay.
                  Enjoy the day,
                  Bill

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Bill Warnock
                    Years ago in both the civilian sector the thinking was anybody can be a police officer. You had very little ambition should you look to that type of employment after all all you needed was a badge and a gun. That was the generalized thinking until the middle 1960s when things started to change. Education and psychological testing were being ushered in. The shirters were on their way out. You no longer had to biggest and ready to club or shoot at the drop of the hat.
                    Private security at one time hired the brightest stars. Modern police technology had it start with Pinkerton who maintained photographs and fingerprints of criminals. Cal Crim Detective Agency from Cincinnati was the first in gathering information and photographs of body markings and tattoos. All private sectors initiatives.
                    As public law enforcement agencies gathered a foothold, private security became a business and competition drove down costs.
                    Today, look at all the retired federal agents who start a second career in the private sector.
                    Standards will improve as more and more tasks of protection will be assigned to the private sector. With added responsibilities will come better training better training begets better people and better people will receive better pay.
                    Enjoy the day,
                    Bill
                    Bill nailed it in his post above. Security will change and for the better. Circumstances will force a rise in standards/qualifications just as it did for LE. In the meantime, true security professionals will stand out as a beacon of hope until such changes are implemented.
                    Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Bill Warnock
                      Years ago in both the civilian sector the thinking was anybody can be a police officer.
                      This stems from the statement by Sir Walter Peel, who is the original founder of "law enforcement" and for which entered the U.S. through New York from England, when he said: "The public are the police and the police are the public." To-wit, Sir Walter Peel meant that each party has a shared duty and responsbility to protecting public safety by vigorously addressing criminal activity. The two are inter-connected and each must play his part.

                      Originally posted by Bill Warnock
                      Today, look at all the retired federal agents who start a second career in the private sector.
                      It is most perplexing on how we can have so many former police and federal law enforcement officers in our industry and yet, face the degree of daily ridicule and disrespect that we do by the police and others. Likewise, there are many former security officers who become public police officers and yet, such also grossly fails to serve a useful purpose in overcoming the stereotypes and ridicule we face. One would think these factors would serve well in bridging the gaps between the professions. However, logic does not seem to apply here.

                      Originally posted by Bill Warnock
                      Standards will improve as more and more tasks of protection will be assigned to the private sector. With added responsibilities will come better training better training begets better people and better people will receive better pay.
                      I agree that this is one mechansim that will go a long way in improving the standards in our profession, whether by government programs or those created, developed and promoted by front line security officers.

                      However, I do not believe these things alone to be enough when we have too many security officers who are knowingly and willingly complacent to the gross contempt and utter disrepect we receive from others on and off the clock.

                      Perhaps my view is a bit strong here but if we are required to have backbone when dealing with a would be or actual criminal, or a disgruntled tenant, employee or whomever then one must wonder how it is we suddenly lose our backbone when faced with the expectations to suck up the contempt and disrepect we are handed by clients, police, employers and so on.
                      Last edited by Christopherstjo; 04-14-2007, 11:58 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Sir Robert Peel was the founder of the London constabulary and twice prime minister. Many of his ideas about policing and public's responsibility were rammed through parliment at his instance. Many others contributed adding blocks to what we have now. Block by block, bit by bit it evolves. The public sector will be dragged struggling and screaming to recognize the existance of private security and its rightful place in our society.
                        Enjoy the day,
                        Bill

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          You certainly had a strange way of earning the respect of the police officers with whom you were communicating on the O.com forum, Mr. Cross. As I read that thread from top to bottom, I was horrified to see how you, in fact, evoked greater and greater expressions of disrespect as you engaged in what amounted to a "food fight" with police officers. What was even worse was that these expressions finally spilled over onto the rest of us, as anyone with half an ounce of common sense could have predicted they would do. To these officers, you typified everything that is the worst about our industry and merely confirmed what some had already thought. You certainly changed no opinions for the better. It was, in short, a disgraceful display.

                          Respect is never demanded, Mr. Cross...it is earned. You obviously have a chip on your shoulder the size of Boulder Dam, and whether you realize it or not, it is predictable that it will crush you one of these fine days.
                          Last edited by SecTrainer; 04-14-2007, 01:06 PM.
                          "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                          "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                          "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                          "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Bill Warnock
                            Sir Robert Peel was the founder of the London constabulary and twice prime minister. Many of his ideas about policing and public's responsibility were rammed through parliment at his instance.
                            True. He was appointed to Chief Secretary for Ireland and became a Privy Counsellor. And while he wanted to rule by existing law, public disorder became so bad that in 1814 he partially reactivated the Insurrection Act of 1807. Moreover, Peel created the "peace preservation force" (commonly called the "Peelers") which ultimately transformed into the Royal Irish Constabulary.

                            In any event, I do agree with the aforesaid quote I cited - I believe that if we took such an approach maybe - just maybe we might have a more peaceful society or at least one that did not have such divisions that we see existing.

                            Originally posted by Bill Warnock
                            The public sector will be dragged struggling and screaming to recognize the existance of private security and its rightful place in our society.
                            I'm not sure if it will be the public or security officers who are dragged struggling and screaming but we are on the forefront of progress that is for sure.
                            Last edited by Christopherstjo; 04-15-2007, 01:50 AM.

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                            • #59
                              SecTrainer

                              I have reached a point where I am bored with you. When you are ready to have an adult like conversation by all means feel free to post something worth reading. Until then, I wish you all the best and hope you are successful in life.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Christopherstjo
                                SecTrainer

                                I have reached a point where I am bored with you. When you are ready to have an adult like conversation by all means feel free to post something worth reading. Until then, I wish you all the best and hope you are successful in life.
                                Don't take this the wrong way, but I suggest you take your own advice. I don't wish to get involved in the pissing match, but after reading your posts here and on O.com, I find myself agreeing more with SecTrainer.
                                Last edited by davis002; 04-15-2007, 03:28 AM.
                                "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

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