Use of Force scenerio to examine:

[Mall Director Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mall Director]

Well, tonight was very interesting.. The evening went on without much in the way of incidents. Typical barrment of inappropriate youth, a couple arrests without further issues.. But, stuff hit the fan as the night closed. So, with this, I thought I would throw this out there for examination, and get feedback!

Early in the evening, a group of juveniles were brought in for loitering, after having recieved a complaint from our local PD. Standard policy is to check for weapons as they are brought into the control center. The last of the four male subjects refused to be searched, provided no ID, and was non-cooperative. Thus he was placed in restraints for his safety and all involved (policy directed and administered by our local PD per safety regulations). Anywho, subject was barred. One of the S/O officers stated that the parent of this one was a typically hostile type, and warned me of such. I called out to our local PD officers to come keep the peace for the parents arrival. Parent arrived and behaved as expected, but no violence. Parent and juvenile left without further incident.

As the we were cleaning up remaining juveniles, in walks Dad, Mom and barred Juvenile. Dad approaches me, and my two top sergeants. He begins to unload verbally with the race card and redicules the malls rules. Everytime he asks a question and i go to answer, he interrupts and becomes more aggitated. Physiological signs by the dad indicates hostile actions are coming up. After a short semi-debate, I realize the father has no real interest in what I have to offer, and his yelling has gone to far. I advise on three seperate cases to leave, and failure to leave will result in him being arrested for criminal trespassing per state law. The father disregards my adivsements and refuses to believe such action can be taken, with a final response from him that he refuses to leae and nothing can be done. This is the short story of course. After the third attempt to make him go away verbally (I really didnt want things to go on or further), I advise him that he is now to be placed under arrest for said crime. I indicate to my two sergeant to place him as such. Right before they move, I back away from the upset individual, andn he steps towards me, then towards the sergeants raising his arms and fists, then leans in towards the sergeants. Now, said father outwieghs each of us by 150lbs easily, and his arms are as big as my whole body. One sergeant before being able to make any advisement, steps back as he is being agressed and deploys OC. Immediately, the subject covers his face screams, and runs out the door. (bad news, I dont need a squished dad due to his blindness and running through traffic).

Both sergeants follow, and attempt to stop him. With a duration of struggle on the second contact, a second deployment of OC was made. With little response the subject fought off the sergeants and ran out into the parking lot and traffic.

Finally, on the third contact, and advisement to stop, the subject is brought to the ground, and still resists the sergeants. In the mean time, I am warding off an upset mother, and a very upset barred juvenile. Finally, the subject is placed in (3) three sets of restraints (as one set and the second set were too short to bring this overly built individuals hands behind his back, without causing harm to the subject). Off to decon the subject went. He was brought into the control center, where first aid was administered. OC decon only requires the subject being removed from the "contaminated" area, and given "fresh air". We took it to the next level. Offered fresh running water from an eye wash station, and J+J baby shampoo to number the stinging.

In the end, the subject thanked the one sergeant for "doing things right" while condemming the second sergeant for his "abuse".

Our witnesses filled their statements out, and in their words, they feared for the security officers safety, as they seen a very large man thwarting off the S/O's detention.

The arrested parties statements claimed fist fighting, kicking, and a beat down by the S/O.

PD finally arrived in numbers (BTW: dispatch got to hear a very upset mother using profanity and escilating the situaiton, as well as recieving 9-1-1 calls from upset merchants fearing for the lives of the security personnel)

PD cited the arrested subject with criminal trespassing, and found no evidence of abuse or excessive use of force by security.

As the charged subject left with his family and 14 friends, he stated he was going to persue a lawsuit. His friends however found the Security's actions to be wrong, and expressed retaliation.

So, Thoughts, quesitons, comments?

If a lawsuit comes up, what do you think of the process and outcome?

[joecolerulz Junior Member Find all posts View Profile Close joecolerulz]

very interesting story glad you and your 2 sargeants got out unscaved and are ok. Personally i think you did the right thing , Yous were under threat and did not escalate the situation verbally as you just stated what you intended on doing and didnt shout insults back , you then took a step back and sprayed him with pepper spray.

I am not that experianced in the industry but common sense tells me from reading that he was going to use physical force on you and your 2 sargeants anytime as he was getting more and more aggitated and more aggresive.

What else could you of done? I think you did every thing right and its good noone is leaving the situation permantely hurt. Ignore what family members and the perp says , ive been told that my license No: was reported and i would be stripped of it immediately , ive been threatened to be charged for assault etc.

Mate dont listen to anyone unless they are also in law enforcement and know there stuff. The perp and the family are just peed off and angry disregard everything that say.

[Mr. Security Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mr. Security]

Filing a lawsuit is easy. Winning can be much more difficult. Get a copy of the police report and see how they saw it. If the police didn't document excessive force and an ambulance didn't transport the suspect, then I wouldn't be too worried about it.

[Defensive tactics Member Find all posts View Profile Close Defensive tactics]

mall director you did the right thing

1. Subject was warned multiple times to cease his actions and leave property with no co operation on his part.

2. Subject went through two use of force levels on our matrix (Canadian) e.g suspect was verbally resistant orders had a raised tone of voice and was inciting others to disobey (passive resistance) subject went back into a fighting stance and raised his CLENCHED fists (active resistance) suspect flees from your officer and physically resists arrest (assultive)

3. You had multiple subjects on scene who could have posed a threat (one the subjects had already physically resisted your officers earlier on in the day)

I say it was a good call

I am glad everyone is ok...

[tlangsr Member Find all posts View Profile Close tlangsr]

I don't believe there will be a law suit, I can't remeber how many times I have heard that threat in the past year and nothing came about. If there was one it would be an open and shut case with you and the mall as the victor's. Congrats to you and your seargents. It is just sad that sometimes inflicting pain on someone is the only way to get them to comply.

[Mall Director Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mall Director]

Yeah, poor fellow will have to get in line, as there are so many others that have made the intent to sue.

I appreciate the feedback, and keep it coming. I do look for other ways to go where situations can be resolved without going to the next level, and sadly, this fellow just wasnt going to give up unless he got a response from me saying that yes we do profile and go after minorities, and yes we are poo heads! It was quite frustrating that I used every verbal tactic I knew to get everyone out of this situation, and still there was no resolve to the issue.

I think it frustrates me the most that there was no way around going to the next level, in all my attempts, and not only did we have to trespass the juvenile, but then the father as well later on. It was like a perpetuating circle of ill behavior and wrongful decision making steps by the family. The other frustrating part is that I have spent all last month meeting, lecturing and talking with people with the same issues where they felt "wronged", and have worked so hard at defusing such stigmas.

I can see that this is going to be a political nightmare over the next few months, after resolving the matter previousely. To be honest, yesterday was so bad with the "R-Card" getting tossed around, that I have really had my fill with it. My original posting, I had hoped that maybe I missed a crutial point at which an exit to the entire escilation had been missed, but with the responses I am recieving, it appears otherwise.. So thank you all!

[Guest Close OccamsRazor]

Well, now you know why the kid acted the way he did.

[Mr. Security Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mr. Security]

I don't believe there will be a law suit, I can't remeber how many times I have heard that threat in the past year and nothing came about. If there was one it would be an open and shut case with you and the mall as the victor's. Congrats to you and your seargents. It is just sad that sometimes inflicting pain on someone is the only way to get them to comply.

That's because the State has meddled in the affairs of parents telling them that ALL corporal punishment is child abuse. Perhaps if this father had his rear end warmed up when he was a kid he'd have known how to handle his son's delinquency.

[Guest Close OccamsRazor]

That's because the State has meddled in the affairs of parents telling them that ALL corporal punishment is child abuse. Perhaps if this father had his rear end warmed up when he was a kid he'd have known how to handle his son's delinquency.

Around here, it's not the state so much as it is the schools and CPS. My son's old school district was telling the kids to call 911 if their parents so much as threatened to spank them. They sent home a handout with the kids stating that if they suspect a parent of spanking their child, or if a child reports spanking to the teacher or admin people, the police and CPS would be called.

I replied with a pleasant note and included a copy of the state law that states:

Physical discipline of a child, including the reasonable use of corporal punishment, is not considered abuse when it is reasonable and moderate and is inflicted by a parent or guardian for the purposes of restraining or correcting the child.

She replied with a letter saying, among other things, that she felt the citation of the law was a direct threat to use physical discipline on my son, and she would be checking with the school district's legal counsel to see whether or not they could intervene, along with the police and CPS, to have my son removed from "an abusive atmosphere".

He no longer goes there.

Of course, this was the same place that wanted to hold a parent-teacher conference with a school resource officer (cop) present after my son (5 at the time) was seen by the teacher drawing a picture of a gun in the margin of one of his notebooks.

[Mr. Security Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mr. Security]

Around here, it's not the state so much as it is the schools and CPS. My son's old school district was telling the kids to call 911 if their parents so much as threatened to spank them. They sent home a handout with the kids stating that if they suspect a parent of spanking their child, or if a child reports spanking to the teacher or admin people, the police and CPS would be called.

I replied with a pleasant note and included a copy of the state law that states:

Physical discipline of a child, including the reasonable use of corporal punishment, is not considered abuse when it is reasonable and moderate and is inflicted by a parent or guardian for the purposes of restraining or correcting the child.

She replied with a letter saying, among other things, that she felt the citation of the law was a direct threat to use physical discipline on my son, and she would be checking with the school district's legal counsel to see whether or not they could intervene, along with the police and CPS, to have my son removed from "an abusive atmosphere".

He no longer goes there.

Of course, this was the same place that wanted to hold a parent-teacher conference with a school resource officer (cop) present after my son (5 at the time) was seen by the teacher drawing a picture of a gun in the margin of one of his notebooks.

Figures. If the state or anyone else wants to dictate how a child must be raised, then by all means, let THEM raise the kid(s). That's similar to instructing a person to do things their way and, BTW, if it doesn't work it's your fault/problem, or in this case, the parent(s).

[bigdog Member Find all posts View Profile Close bigdog]

the sitaution was handled professionally and in the situation described the use of force was justified. are your officers armed with any other weapons besides OC? the reason I ask because after the subject physically resisted a baton strike wouldve been justified as well.

[ff000525 Member Find all posts View Profile Close ff000525]

I too think the situation was handled with the appropriate amount of force. Ahhh, to be able to arrest someone for trespassing, per state law, that would be so nice (citizen's arrest is a gray matter here in WI). As for the baton, I doubt I would've used one in this situation. From MD's description of the actor I doubt an ASP type baton would've done much good (now maybe a Winchester baton would've worked) and it might have changed the witnesses' views on the situation. Even though its appropriate I still cringe and I'm sure most reasonable people do too, when I see a video of someone being struck with multiple baton strikes, it just looks bad. I was in a training class once where the instructor explained that the normal person will accept one or two blows, whether its a fist, knee, or baton, before they consider force to be excessive (regardless if the subject complies or not). Usually, compliance holds, decentralizations (taking someone down), and good ol' "wrestling" with someone is not considered excessive by the normal citizen. Studies have also shown that it normally takes 4-7 strikes with an expandable type baton to make the subject comply, if the presentation of the baton doesn't. Just a little food for thought, I wish we didn't have to work in a world that saw things that way, but we do. MD, thanks for sharing, stay safe.

[Mall Director Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mall Director]

Well, I appreciate the approvals! Thank you all much! I know its best to learn from others experiences, and seeing what happens is sometimes a hidden factor that we may be shared with on, so if it helps anyone, or encourages criticism, knowledge or thought, I am all for getting it out there!

A little update to the whole mess of affairs..

The subject, went to PD the following day, and wanted charges pressed against the two sergeants. He stated that he was kicked and struck in the back by the arresting sergeants after being sprayed. The subject did have bruises consistant with the strikes he claimed. He also had a few other complaints concerning excessive use of force in the incident. So, PD had to investigate.

Normally, this would have freaked me out, especially hearing that there was said injuries. After that night I collected witness statements from people in the parking lot. My 4 statements I collected said there was no observed strikes to the subject, while his 15 (mostly family and friends) said there was.

Know what solved it quick and without further investigation... The audio recording from one of the sergeants..You can literally hear each movement of each person, and all conversation during the incident.

I know it may be out of charactor to share any "trade secrets" of any agency, but what I am about to say is not such, its common sense and great tips for success:

Buy an audio recorder. Yes, in some states its illegal to record events and use them in court. Our state says it is legal and only one person has to know, but who says you have to use it in court.. If you get investigated, you can use it with your local PD to clear their minds.

As you deal with a subject, observe who all is around you, and after the situation has been handled, collect written statements from everyone, including those statements that are shady. It will backfire on them later.

As you finalize your arrest/detention, and you have the subject secured, start asking sincerity questions. "are you Ok? Do you want medical? You will be alright".. These things go along way to your effort later on.

The one sergeant got all sorts of kudo's from the subject, subjects family, and PD, as the subject claimed that "the one security sergeant was very professional, he asked me if I was OK afterwards, and tried to help me. He did a great job!" (quoted directly from the subjects conversation to PD).

Its amazing how we were able to "hose" a large irrate subject, persue him down through the parking lot, initiate arrest tactics twice, and end up on the cold hard ground, then place direct control over him , to then have him say "great job" afterwards, all because of a simple "are you Ok? You will be alright" comment by on of the sergeants! Wow.. I am taken back by this.

But the documentation process really goes far in the long run.. I cant claim that enough! I was irritated by the investigation, and still am, but its part of the process! I know!

[Mr. Security Senior Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mr. Security]

Well, I appreciate the approvals! Thank you all much! I know its best to learn from others experiences, and seeing what happens is sometimes a hidden factor that we may be shared with on, so if it helps anyone, or encourages criticism, knowledge or thought, I am all for getting it out there!

A little update to the whole mess of affairs..

The subject, went to PD the following day, and wanted charges pressed against the two sergeants. He stated that he was kicked and struck in the back by the arresting sergeants after being sprayed. The subject did have bruises consistant with the strikes he claimed. He also had a few other complaints concerning excessive use of force in the incident. So, PD had to investigate.

Normally, this would have freaked me out, especially hearing that there was said injuries. After that night I collected witness statements from people in the parking lot. My 4 statements I collected said there was no observed strikes to the subject, while his 15 (mostly family and friends) said there was.

Know what solved it quick and without further investigation... The audio recording from one of the sergeants..You can literally hear each movement of each person, and all conversation during the incident.

I know it may be out of charactor to share any "trade secrets" of any agency, but what I am about to say is not such, its common sense and great tips for success:

Buy an audio recorder. Yes, in some states its illegal to record events and use them in court. Our state says it is legal and only one person has to know, but who says you have to use it in court.. If you get investigated, you can use it with your local PD to clear their minds.

As you deal with a subject, observe who all is around you, and after the situation has been handled, collect written statements from everyone, including those statements that are shady. It will backfire on them later.

As you finalize your arrest/detention, and you have the subject secured, start asking sincerity questions. "are you Ok? Do you want medical? You will be alright".. These things go along way to your effort later on.

The one sergeant got all sorts of kudo's from the subject, subjects family, and PD, as the subject claimed that "the one security sergeant was very professional, he asked me if I was OK afterwards, and tried to help me. He did a great job!" (quoted directly from the subjects conversation to PD).

Its amazing how we were able to "hose" a large irrate subject, persue him down through the parking lot, initiate arrest tactics twice, and end up on the cold hard ground, then place direct control over him , to then have him say "great job" afterwards, all because of a simple "are you Ok? You will be alright" comment by on of the sergeants! Wow.. I am taken back by this.

But the documentation process really goes far in the long run.. I cant claim that enough! I was irritated by the investigation, and still am, but its part of the process! I know!

Can you pursue the matter since the complainant deliberately filed a false statement with the police? That's a crime in CT.

[Mall Director Member Find all posts View Profile Close Mall Director]

You know.. I will check into that! Thats actually a good idea! I may need that, as one of the other complaints filed was for the treatment of his son during our processing.. Things got a little sticky there, in that his son made some false accusations that were pretty horrendous. This one we are working out now, so it may be beneficial to have that as an option if the father wants to continue!

It may have to be persued in civil claims.