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surviving edged weapons (classic police training video)

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  • Consolewatcher
    replied
    Originally posted by Condo Guard View Post
    Well, I apologize for taking this thread off track (although I'll throw Squid under the bus since he technically started it). I'll make one last comment, since I deal with it all the time. Yes, Seattle makes a big deal about how when they bulldoze an illegal encampment they save the valuables and the people can come to a central warehouse and claim their stuff. (You couldn't pay me enough to be the property clerk there.) Soper is correct that private property owners cannot just throw stuff out without some effort to save and reunite items to their owners.

    Here's the deal - the sheer volume of junk and contaminated items is mind boggling. I really think private property owners have a right to just toss stuff if they can articulate that storing it and waiting for an owner to show up is a burden or hazard on them. Just my opinion. "Now back to your regular programming, already in progress."

    In 15 months, 32,012 hypodermic syringes were collected in Seattle, according to Seattle Public Utilities.


    I wouldn't say "don't throw it out", but rather "cover your ass". Firstly, don't throw it out unless the post orders permit you to, or you have permission from your company/client (written form is preferred). Secondly, I would make efforts to show to anyone involved (the owner of the stuff, the police, the courts, "citizen journalists", etc.. that I made reasonable efforts to locate the owner of the item(s) and communicate with them that they should not leave the items there. This may involve saying out loud "DOES THIS STUFF BELONG TO ANYONE?", and then putting a note on the stuff that it is going to be moved, waiting a few hours (or overnight) and then moving it.

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  • Condo Guard
    replied
    Well, I apologize for taking this thread off track (although I'll throw Squid under the bus since he technically started it). I'll make one last comment, since I deal with it all the time. Yes, Seattle makes a big deal about how when they bulldoze an illegal encampment they save the valuables and the people can come to a central warehouse and claim their stuff. (You couldn't pay me enough to be the property clerk there.) Soper is correct that private property owners cannot just throw stuff out without some effort to save and reunite items to their owners.

    Here's the deal - the sheer volume of junk and contaminated items is mind boggling. I really think private property owners have a right to just toss stuff if they can articulate that storing it and waiting for an owner to show up is a burden or hazard on them. Just my opinion. "Now back to your regular programming, already in progress."

    In 15 months, 32,012 hypodermic syringes were collected in Seattle, according to Seattle Public Utilities.



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  • Squid
    replied
    Originally posted by Soper View Post
    That bag from that bum has been found to be private property by the Courts, you and the police can’t just toss it out without resulting legal claims, which you WILL lose.
    correct, and thats why companies that run those parking lot sweeper trucks send out registered letters after fingerprinting each fast food cup or soda can they sweep up....then hold every thing for 6 weeks.

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  • Lunch Meat
    replied
    Originally posted by Soper View Post
    That bag from that bum has been found to be private property by the Courts, you and the police can’t just toss it out without resulting legal claims, which you WILL lose.
    Prove "I" tossed it out.

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  • Soper
    replied
    That bag from that bum has been found to be private property by the Courts, you and the police can’t just toss it out without resulting legal claims, which you WILL lose.

    Leave a comment:


  • Squid
    replied
    Originally posted by Consolewatcher View Post

    Something that I have reminded other security guards frequently is that we have NO legal authority to handle or possess drugs, even if we're doing for the right reasons. If we are kicking someone off our property for using drugs, assuming that they have no contractual authority to be there (such as a rental agreement) it does not matter if it actually was drugs or not.
    I've known two diff guys that were arrested on public sidewalk at bus stop by private Security employed by adjacent mall for smoking a joint. IIRC you can do a "citizen's arrest" for any crime in your presence, including things that "don't involve you".

    IIRC its not uncommon for Company Goons to ARREST an employee found with drugs on company property, and have cops come collect them off property, and that had to do with Company Liability.

    That was back in the 1980s when all the Silicon Valley guys were doing way too much blow. Some guy got fired, and they took his stash, so first thing he does is go racing to his dealers house in his 280Z and crashes into a soccer mom and kids. Came out that Company KNEW he was on drugs, and since he normally didn't walk to work they also knew he'd be Driving On Drugs.


    During 1st Training class it was drilled into us 6 or 7 diff ways that as guards, even if client directs us and says things like "I'll take responsibility" we cannot do any RETRIEVAL of STOLEN property, no matter how obvious, not even if its sitting in back of open pickup.

    On the other hand, a property owner has right to remove stuff left on his property without permission and maybe a very limited duty to be "reasonable", which IMO only includes "holding" it in the dumpster till next pickup, and certainly no duty to sort out who owns what. Property Owner DOES have duty to mitigate "danger to public" including keeping grounds free of bad things.

    Just don't "take" something from someone. As far as you are concerned everything is abandoned and you have no knowledge of any owners. If a bum leaves a bag and you toss it, then bum comes back and they call cops and you admit you know it was "his bag" I'm guessing cop will be boxed into going all in for the bum against you.
    Last edited by Squid; 01-13-2019, 03:01 PM.

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  • Lunch Meat
    replied
    Originally posted by Consolewatcher View Post

    Something that I have reminded other security guards frequently is that we have NO legal authority to handle or possess drugs, even if we're doing for the right reasons. If we are kicking someone off our property for using drugs, assuming that they have no contractual authority to be there (such as a rental agreement) it does not matter if it actually was drugs or not.
    Do they listen to you?

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  • Consolewatcher
    replied
    Originally posted by Squid View Post
    9/10 a bum's bag will contain Felony illegal drugs, or at least well used Felony Drug paraphernalia with residue enough to be charged as "possession".....and.....

    no ID that would indicate its someone property besides YOURS.

    Sad fact is if a Security Guard is found with drugs in possession on duty its not gonna be a lock that "they just found it, it their job to round up such crap"....especially around 4am when everyone is a bit froggy.

    At my site we seem to have frequent police drivebys with searchlight looking for escapee from nearby Public Housing. IIRC dogs can be trained to indicate if someone recently touched an object, and off course they can detect drugs. I don't need a police dog finding a dope smelling bag in the office, then telling the cop "it belongs to this guy here", and HOPING to talk my way out of it.

    I'll throw a 1000 Bum Bags straight in the trash, and deny everything, or run over with my van, before I'd take a chance on "holding" any dope laced property for any trespassing bums.
    Something that I have reminded other security guards frequently is that we have NO legal authority to handle or possess drugs, even if we're doing for the right reasons. If we are kicking someone off our property for using drugs, assuming that they have no contractual authority to be there (such as a rental agreement) it does not matter if it actually was drugs or not.

    Leave a comment:


  • Lunch Meat
    replied
    Originally posted by Squid View Post
    9/10 a bum's bag will contain Felony illegal drugs, or at least well used Felony Drug paraphernalia with residue enough to be charged as "possession".....and.....

    no ID that would indicate its someone property besides YOURS.

    Sad fact is if a Security Guard is found with drugs in possession on duty its not gonna be a lock that "they just found it, it their job to round up such crap"....especially around 4am when everyone is a bit froggy.

    At my site we seem to have frequent police drivebys with searchlight looking for escapee from nearby Public Housing. IIRC dogs can be trained to indicate if someone recently touched an object, and off course they can detect drugs. I don't need a police dog finding a dope smelling bag in the office, then telling the cop "it belongs to this guy here", and HOPING to talk my way out of it.

    I'll throw a 1000 Bum Bags straight in the trash, and deny everything, or run over with my van, before I'd take a chance on "holding" any dope laced property for any trespassing bums.

    police dogs can be trained to "indicate" whether you've got anything illegal on you or not. If you have Donuts on you they'll alert every time

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  • Squid
    replied
    9/10 a bum's bag will contain Felony illegal drugs, or at least well used Felony Drug paraphernalia with residue enough to be charged as "possession".....and.....

    no ID that would indicate its someone property besides YOURS.

    Sad fact is if a Security Guard is found with drugs in possession on duty its not gonna be a lock that "they just found it, it their job to round up such crap"....especially around 4am when everyone is a bit froggy.

    At my site we seem to have frequent police drivebys with searchlight looking for escapee from nearby Public Housing. IIRC dogs can be trained to indicate if someone recently touched an object, and off course they can detect drugs. I don't need a police dog finding a dope smelling bag in the office, then telling the cop "it belongs to this guy here", and HOPING to talk my way out of it.

    I'll throw a 1000 Bum Bags straight in the trash, and deny everything, or run over with my van, before I'd take a chance on "holding" any dope laced property for any trespassing bums.

    Leave a comment:


  • Consolewatcher
    replied
    Yeah, I was thinking more along the lines of theowing out a homeless person's stuff while he's asleep or left the area temporarily; that's the kind of thing that could land someone in a lot of trouble. If a person's using your property as a long-term storage, then it would likely be less of a problem (though I would suggest leaving a note telling them to remove it in x period of time or it'll be removed.

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  • Condo Guard
    replied
    Point(s) taken. We are private property. We do have a lost and found, but with limited space.

    I make decisions on a case by case basis. If the owner is found and calm, he can take his bottle / bag and go. But I am not turning in lice / scabies infested backpacks or urine soaked suitcases to lost & found - now I'm creating a health hazard and stinking up the office.

    I have put luggage aside in a secure area and given it back when claimed, with a polite reminder that we are not a storage facility. I understand the homeless have rights. But if you don't live in a city with a massive, roaming homeless addict population that leave their stuff all over because when they get high they can't remember where they put it, you are not aware of the challenges private businesses face.

    And don't tell me to turn it in to the police - we can't get them for anything other than high value theft or violent crime.
    Last edited by Condo Guard; 01-10-2019, 03:50 PM.

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  • Lunch Meat
    replied
    Originally posted by Consolewatcher View Post

    Destroying or throwing out a homeless person's property is a crime and could cause you to face criminal charges, just the same as if they weren't homeless.
    Even if you don't face criminal charges that's asking for police involvement that you don't need.

    My employer has a very specific protocol for lost and found items. it's not something that I deal with frequently but you can bet that when I do I document the hell out of it and if I can get a supervisor there to witness and take possession of the items I do

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  • Squid
    replied
    Originally posted by Condo Guard View Post
    \
    The Jack Daniels comment made me laugh - I throw bottles away because they can be weapons
    in my case the bottle was purely fictional ruse to trick the bum into showing he was awake. start pouring water on ground to make slashing sounds for tough case.

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  • Squid
    replied
    Originally posted by Consolewatcher View Post

    Destroying or throwing out a homeless person's property is a crime and could cause you to face criminal charges, just the same as if they weren't homeless.
    Good point. In training we were told "you do not have ANY 'self help' rights to recover even STOLEN property".

    LL are legally required to hold "abandoned" stuff for 6 weeks in CA IIRC. Not sure about "hotels".

    But I'm guessing on private property with "no trespassing" signs duly and legally posted, any "unattended property" can be considered trash and hauled off ASAP.....except maybe cars and even trailers. Another great time to roll video of yourself calling loudly for the owner to claim his "property"/trash.

    There is a youtube about a House Flipper where someone parks a small trailer and is obviously "stealth living" with windows papered, etc., and the guy is trying to LEGALLY get it removed and getting no where with local cops, tow companies, etc. Mr Flipper is posting notes and even having a note-posting "war". LOL. He doesn't want to just push it out to street and then "call it in" because cops will know its "his" and Mr Flipper would be getting huge "storage lien" bill etc. Eventually, one night it just was gone.

    PS- NEVER admit any connection or knowledge in any way of any abandoned vehicle OR....semi-stray dog off leash. If car is "out of system" the city will make it your problem if no one else can be found. If you tell Dog Catcher "I know that dog (but its not mine)" it just became yours as far as the ticket.

    As I always say, "in Security, you are more likely to get fired for doing your job than not doing your job".

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