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Do small crimes lead to larger offenses?

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  • Condo Guard
    started a topic Do small crimes lead to larger offenses?

    Do small crimes lead to larger offenses?

    Depending upon what study you read, the answer is yes...or no. Seattle is currently engaged in an interesting social experiment, partially on purpose (the city council has told the police to leave the homeless and the drug addicts alone), and a lack of police, prosecutors and jail space. Thus, you can pretty much walk around with a beer and a joint in your hand, do a little bit of shoplifting and trespassing, and you won't be bothered.

    I'm a big believer in the broken windows theory, because I've seen it work. If you clean up trash and graffiti consistently, you will eventually see a drop in both. So I'm curious - in real life or from a study you've seen, does letting small crimes go without any consequences lead to bigger problems? Should Seattle demand more police and security, or just learn to live with the new policy?

  • Squid
    replied
    Originally posted by Condo Guard View Post
    Thanks SoCal. I don't think petty crimes are a "gateway" to violent crimes; the violent criminal is a different kind of person than the petty thief. But I wonder if a lot of petty thieves "graduate" to bigger and better crimes (auto theft, burglary, etc.) because they get away with it.

    As far as violent crime goes, all I can say is that the shoplifters and "grab and go" types in Seattle are getting more aggressive - whether that's due to drugs, the weather getting colder or a lack of police presence, I don't know.
    reason Mob, Drug Dealers, Pimps, etc are always killing people is they can't take their disputes to court, and they can't really be imprisoning people for minor offenses, except maybe the Pimps. lol.

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  • Condo Guard
    replied
    Thanks SoCal. I don't think petty crimes are a "gateway" to violent crimes; the violent criminal is a different kind of person than the petty thief. But I wonder if a lot of petty thieves "graduate" to bigger and better crimes (auto theft, burglary, etc.) because they get away with it.

    As far as violent crime goes, all I can say is that the shoplifters and "grab and go" types in Seattle are getting more aggressive - whether that's due to drugs, the weather getting colder or a lack of police presence, I don't know.

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  • Squid
    replied
    Originally posted by SoCalGuard View Post
    I can tell you that, in general, people who commit violent offenses have history of committing petty offensives first. Correlation is not causation, and in my 4-years of study in criminology, no criminological theory was presented which proved definitively why people commit violent crimes. (There always seems to be exceptions to every rule.)
    First thing I'd look at is quality of data. Are they counting "violent actions" or "arrests for violence" or "convictions for crimes of violence" and even in the latter you will see lots of "just boys being boys" convicted of same offense as nasty attacks on innocent victims. A lot of THAT comes from "good people" who know they are sorta guilty pleading GUILTY at their first ARRAIGNMENT. On the other side, lots of "professionally" violent people (and dedicated passionate amateurs LOL) commit 100s or 1000s of serious acts of violence for decades and never even get cops called.

    And don't look to any Psych PhD types to improve data via confidential research/questioning. My Psych 101 prof was telling us that Indian and Chinese women had a high age for first sexual activity of late 20s. (this was supposed to mean they were better people than Americans, of course). I quick look at the age (minus 9 months lol) of average first child birth didn't match his claim. I asked "how do the Western researchers know these women aren't fibbing, especially about SEX?" He said they have training and can tell.

    IIRC there are some DNA markers that correlate to violence. I'm predicting two similar probs with using the data: 1) It will be non-PC. 2)It will also be "Legally Incorrect" in that many if not most cops will be shown to be genetically predisposed to turning non-violent situations violent, and this will be an EXACT match for diffs in well documented "work history" of diff cops in same towns, same beats.
    Last edited by Squid; 10-27-2018, 01:35 PM.

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  • Squid
    replied
    Originally posted by Soper View Post
    If it's not a written LAW, there is no action that can be taken. Stop making things up. You know NOTHING.
    bulk of my Police Legal education comes from my required High School police "ride along". I was a big clean cut jock with good but not great grades and no "bad influence" friends, and I guess I'd been recommended for recruitment during the ride along, because 3 diff cops including the watch commander hinted at it.

    One of the main "insider" things I learned was how LAWS are written so vaguely that anyone CAN be treated as a criminal, up until they get a REAL lawyer who is able to bring a serious lawsuit against the police for "Harassment" but that basically takes an act of Congress, and unless the police continue AFTER some judge's order all that happens is the police "back off a bit".

    "Loitering" is like "balk" in baseball. We stopped and questioned/shook down a guy who was walking normally down the sidewalk. (supposedly drugs/prostitution in the area after 2am).

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  • SoCalGuard
    replied
    I can tell you that, in general, people who commit violent offenses have history of committing petty offensives first. Correlation is not causation, and in my 4-years of study in criminology, no criminological theory was presented which proved definitively why people commit violent crimes. (There always seems to be exceptions to every rule.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Soper
    replied
    If it's not a written LAW, there is no action that can be taken. Stop making things up. You know NOTHING.

    Leave a comment:


  • Squid
    replied
    Originally posted by Condo Guard View Post

    Console is right in that our role is pretty much moving people along to become someone else's problem, and try to deter them from coming back.
    PS- I've heard that any indirect creation of "hostile environment" toward Bums WILL be taken seriously by SFPD. No creating dust that blows onto them, ditto with mist from hose spraying in another direction, no exhaust from car in their direction.

    I guess its assumed they are unable to move and have a perfect right to stay, so any such stuff is basically a physical assault.

    I'd imagine in SF playing loud music "at" Bums also illegal.

    Illegal Aliens are sacred cows in CA, but in SF Bums are high priests (probably because SFPD knows Bums know the law).

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  • Condo Guard
    replied
    Yes - I've had homeless tell me to get bent because only if a Seattle Police officer showed up would they move (and that would give them at least another three hours on property). I regularly have to explain to aggressive thieves that if they touch me in any way that is 4th degree assault and at the least they will be banned from the premises.

    Console is right in that our role is pretty much moving people along to become someone else's problem, and try to deter them from coming back.

    The business community is also at fault - the chamber of commerce in Seattle is so proud they helped get a crime ridden park in Seattle cleaned up; meanwhile the rest of the city goes to heck. If I were a member of a merchants assoc. I would demand they start lobbying for more prosecutions, or I'd stop paying my yearly dues. I bet the Downtown Seattle Association would pay attention if half its members just quit paying until something got done. Just a thought...
    Last edited by Condo Guard; 10-20-2018, 05:18 PM.

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  • Squid
    replied
    Originally posted by Condo Guard View Post
    increasingly clients are asking us to be quasi-law enforcement (at least in Seattle and SF).
    my fave was CL ad for guards in SF and part of duties was "remove homeless from sidewalk in front of client's business".

    IIRC this was an actual decent sized guard company's ad, not just some frustrated (foreign born) biz owner who don't know US laws.

    EVERY homeless I've met in SF is a mini-lawyer. EVERY casual conversation they speak in semi-legal terms of what they are doing, can do, can't do. Had some homeless "RV People" tell a CA Park Ranger (in sargent's strips no less) to basically sod-off and "I only deal with SFPD". LMAO!

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  • Consolewatcher
    replied
    Originally posted by Condo Guard View Post
    You have a liberal elite on the west coast that sees petty criminals and others as "victims," and thus don't want to enforce the law. Yes, we need a discussion in this country about our criminal justice system and how to make it fair for everyone, but that doesn't mean telling your police to not enforce the law in the meantime.

    I bring it up because it is a security issue in that we are often hired to deter petty crime on sites, but increasingly clients are asking us to be quasi-law enforcement (at least in Seattle and SF). I'd like to see companies and individuals pressure their politicians to do something, rather than asking the security industry to fix a public policy failure.
    The difference between private security and public police (or public security) is that in private security, the clients don't care if people continue their negative behaviour; they only care if they do it on THEIR property. For example, in the eyes of a client if a security guard goes to tell someone to stop smoking weed in their lobby, and they do it in the next building over, then they're happy.

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  • Squid
    replied
    Originally posted by Soper View Post
    The Police font "deliberately choose not to do". They are constrained by Law, Policy, which is dictated by their local government, and the voters. So before you speak, you really should take a civics class. Your post is another in a long line of pure drivel.

    No wonder all you are hired to do is guard dirt piles, when you are awake that is.
    last Security gig I did, which keeps calling me back, there was/is ongoing situation with aggressive homeless, dealing, cooking meth, fights, not just tents but crude buildings, frequent out of control fires (at least once a month FD with two trucks and hoses type fires), and IN THE NEWSPAPERS the mayor is wringing his hands about "if only the police would do something". This is on public "no trespassing" property where the cops COULD arrest you just for standing still, and certainly have Green Light to shake you down and see what you are "holding" and run warrants, etc.

    Its widely held that this has to do with local police butt-hurt concerning certain businesses impacted by the anarchy.

    Its one of those "My Shoulder Angel guy is telling me 'get away from this, be smart for once' but my Should Devil is saying 'this is a crack up, how can you not want to have first row seat for this slow motion train wreck'"

    Leave a comment:


  • Condo Guard
    replied
    You have a liberal elite on the west coast that sees petty criminals and others as "victims," and thus don't want to enforce the law. Yes, we need a discussion in this country about our criminal justice system and how to make it fair for everyone, but that doesn't mean telling your police to not enforce the law in the meantime.

    I bring it up because it is a security issue in that we are often hired to deter petty crime on sites, but increasingly clients are asking us to be quasi-law enforcement (at least in Seattle and SF). I'd like to see companies and individuals pressure their politicians to do something, rather than asking the security industry to fix a public policy failure.

    Leave a comment:


  • Soper
    replied
    The Police font "deliberately choose not to do". They are constrained by Law, Policy, which is dictated by their local government, and the voters. So before you speak, you really should take a civics class. Your post is another in a long line of pure drivel.

    No wonder all you are hired to do is guard dirt piles, when you are awake that is.

    Leave a comment:


  • Squid
    replied
    Originally posted by Condo Guard View Post
    I'll be the first to admit it is a complicated issue.

    There needs to be more objective input from think tanks and social scientists
    .
    have any "think tanks and social scientists" ever been right about anything?

    single example of coming up with a policy that didn't make everything worse for everyone?

    Today we have all sorts of alternatives to prison from better and cheaper tech, such as ankle monitors, etc.

    If any of these clowns had policy that worked we'd see a steady decline in crime and prison, instead of the opposite.

    In the real world folks DEMAND constant improvement in safety, costs, quality, etc, and if you don't "deliver" you are tossed aside and never heard of again.

    Does allowing smaller crimes ever lead to lack of bigger crimes? Why on Earth would it?

    This is transparent and deliberate attack on certain neighborhoods for some political reason.

    The real power of Police and Govt is not what they can do, but what they can deliberately choose not to do, and leave targets open to attack in state of anarchy.

    I'm guessing someone hasn't been paying tribute to various political campaigns and politican's pet projects, and not hiring any "Off Duty Officers".
    Last edited by Squid; 10-07-2018, 12:02 AM.

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