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Do small crimes lead to larger offenses?

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  • Do small crimes lead to larger offenses?

    Depending upon what study you read, the answer is yes...or no. Seattle is currently engaged in an interesting social experiment, partially on purpose (the city council has told the police to leave the homeless and the drug addicts alone), and a lack of police, prosecutors and jail space. Thus, you can pretty much walk around with a beer and a joint in your hand, do a little bit of shoplifting and trespassing, and you won't be bothered.

    I'm a big believer in the broken windows theory, because I've seen it work. If you clean up trash and graffiti consistently, you will eventually see a drop in both. So I'm curious - in real life or from a study you've seen, does letting small crimes go without any consequences lead to bigger problems? Should Seattle demand more police and security, or just learn to live with the new policy?

  • #2
    I say it can, but no guarantees. If they are younger and can get away with petty theft, who is to say they wont try to get away with larger thefts?

    Sounds like something seattle would do

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    • #3
      Beer, joint, trespassing CAN be OK and "victimless". However, typically it starts out fine and fun, then seedy elements move it, and it always goes downhill fast into Hard Drug Sales, hookers, pimps, crazed addicts, stolen property sales, frequent bum fights over same, etc. See 'Frisco or Oakland.

      Wanna see something funny? Click on this ad's "google map" on lower right and look at pic of street.https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/roo...712399923.html

      Shoplifting is diff.

      Not only is shopkeeper a victim, it puts him is position of "fight for it or lose it" for his livelihood. Do shopkeepers get to submit an invoice for losses from this Program?

      Allowing shoplifting creates setting for violence, since shopkeeper still has right to physically detain.

      Speaking of shoplifting, why didn't Obama ever mention this shopkeeper as a fine example of "immigrants doing jobs Americans wont do"? "Americans" don't run little stores in these neighborhoods, serving these "under served communities".https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkOfqIXkBRE

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      • #4
        I'll be the first to admit it is a complicated issue. But I think where politicians are not seeing the big picture is in the fact that when you drive away small business you are literally ruining people's lives because you don't want to deal with "third rail" issues (race, economic inequality, etc.) The more you tolerate anti-social behavior, you force people with money (your city's taxpayers) to make a choice - insulate themselves further behind gated communities & towering condos, or leave the city. (The only problem with that now is it is spreading the 'burbs.) Either way, they aren't going to be too keen on giving more money to city government when they aren't affected anymore, or don't see the problem.

        There needs to be more objective input from think tanks and social scientists (not just studies that support the viewpoint of whoever paid for it). Certain low level crimes like drug use or possession of small amounts need to be dealt with differently, because studies have shown fines or jail time don't get these people to clean themselves up. The same with first offenses - if we can divert these people into job training programs, etc. that will steer them to live an honest life, I'm for it. (With the follow up metrics to prove which programs work and which ones do not.)

        What's left is career criminals who ride a fine line - stay just below the felony level and constantly get off. You just can't let that go on without paying a price, and it is being paid by lost revenue and a declining quality of safety.
        Last edited by Condo Guard; 10-06-2018, 03:17 PM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Condo Guard View Post
          I'll be the first to admit it is a complicated issue.

          There needs to be more objective input from think tanks and social scientists
          .
          have any "think tanks and social scientists" ever been right about anything?

          single example of coming up with a policy that didn't make everything worse for everyone?

          Today we have all sorts of alternatives to prison from better and cheaper tech, such as ankle monitors, etc.

          If any of these clowns had policy that worked we'd see a steady decline in crime and prison, instead of the opposite.

          In the real world folks DEMAND constant improvement in safety, costs, quality, etc, and if you don't "deliver" you are tossed aside and never heard of again.

          Does allowing smaller crimes ever lead to lack of bigger crimes? Why on Earth would it?

          This is transparent and deliberate attack on certain neighborhoods for some political reason.

          The real power of Police and Govt is not what they can do, but what they can deliberately choose not to do, and leave targets open to attack in state of anarchy.

          I'm guessing someone hasn't been paying tribute to various political campaigns and politican's pet projects, and not hiring any "Off Duty Officers".
          Last edited by Squid; 10-07-2018, 01:02 AM.

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          • #6
            The Police font "deliberately choose not to do". They are constrained by Law, Policy, which is dictated by their local government, and the voters. So before you speak, you really should take a civics class. Your post is another in a long line of pure drivel.

            No wonder all you are hired to do is guard dirt piles, when you are awake that is.

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            • #7
              You have a liberal elite on the west coast that sees petty criminals and others as "victims," and thus don't want to enforce the law. Yes, we need a discussion in this country about our criminal justice system and how to make it fair for everyone, but that doesn't mean telling your police to not enforce the law in the meantime.

              I bring it up because it is a security issue in that we are often hired to deter petty crime on sites, but increasingly clients are asking us to be quasi-law enforcement (at least in Seattle and SF). I'd like to see companies and individuals pressure their politicians to do something, rather than asking the security industry to fix a public policy failure.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Soper View Post
                The Police font "deliberately choose not to do". They are constrained by Law, Policy, which is dictated by their local government, and the voters. So before you speak, you really should take a civics class. Your post is another in a long line of pure drivel.

                No wonder all you are hired to do is guard dirt piles, when you are awake that is.
                last Security gig I did, which keeps calling me back, there was/is ongoing situation with aggressive homeless, dealing, cooking meth, fights, not just tents but crude buildings, frequent out of control fires (at least once a month FD with two trucks and hoses type fires), and IN THE NEWSPAPERS the mayor is wringing his hands about "if only the police would do something". This is on public "no trespassing" property where the cops COULD arrest you just for standing still, and certainly have Green Light to shake you down and see what you are "holding" and run warrants, etc.

                Its widely held that this has to do with local police butt-hurt concerning certain businesses impacted by the anarchy.

                Its one of those "My Shoulder Angel guy is telling me 'get away from this, be smart for once' but my Should Devil is saying 'this is a crack up, how can you not want to have first row seat for this slow motion train wreck'"

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Condo Guard View Post
                  You have a liberal elite on the west coast that sees petty criminals and others as "victims," and thus don't want to enforce the law. Yes, we need a discussion in this country about our criminal justice system and how to make it fair for everyone, but that doesn't mean telling your police to not enforce the law in the meantime.

                  I bring it up because it is a security issue in that we are often hired to deter petty crime on sites, but increasingly clients are asking us to be quasi-law enforcement (at least in Seattle and SF). I'd like to see companies and individuals pressure their politicians to do something, rather than asking the security industry to fix a public policy failure.
                  The difference between private security and public police (or public security) is that in private security, the clients don't care if people continue their negative behaviour; they only care if they do it on THEIR property. For example, in the eyes of a client if a security guard goes to tell someone to stop smoking weed in their lobby, and they do it in the next building over, then they're happy.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Condo Guard View Post
                    increasingly clients are asking us to be quasi-law enforcement (at least in Seattle and SF).
                    my fave was CL ad for guards in SF and part of duties was "remove homeless from sidewalk in front of client's business".

                    IIRC this was an actual decent sized guard company's ad, not just some frustrated (foreign born) biz owner who don't know US laws.

                    EVERY homeless I've met in SF is a mini-lawyer. EVERY casual conversation they speak in semi-legal terms of what they are doing, can do, can't do. Had some homeless "RV People" tell a CA Park Ranger (in sargent's strips no less) to basically sod-off and "I only deal with SFPD". LMAO!

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                    • #11
                      Yes - I've had homeless tell me to get bent because only if a Seattle Police officer showed up would they move (and that would give them at least another three hours on property). I regularly have to explain to aggressive thieves that if they touch me in any way that is 4th degree assault and at the least they will be banned from the premises.

                      Console is right in that our role is pretty much moving people along to become someone else's problem, and try to deter them from coming back.

                      The business community is also at fault - the chamber of commerce in Seattle is so proud they helped get a crime ridden park in Seattle cleaned up; meanwhile the rest of the city goes to heck. If I were a member of a merchants assoc. I would demand they start lobbying for more prosecutions, or I'd stop paying my yearly dues. I bet the Downtown Seattle Association would pay attention if half its members just quit paying until something got done. Just a thought...
                      Last edited by Condo Guard; 10-20-2018, 06:18 PM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Condo Guard View Post

                        Console is right in that our role is pretty much moving people along to become someone else's problem, and try to deter them from coming back.
                        PS- I've heard that any indirect creation of "hostile environment" toward Bums WILL be taken seriously by SFPD. No creating dust that blows onto them, ditto with mist from hose spraying in another direction, no exhaust from car in their direction.

                        I guess its assumed they are unable to move and have a perfect right to stay, so any such stuff is basically a physical assault.

                        I'd imagine in SF playing loud music "at" Bums also illegal.

                        Illegal Aliens are sacred cows in CA, but in SF Bums are high priests (probably because SFPD knows Bums know the law).

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                        • #13
                          If it's not a written LAW, there is no action that can be taken. Stop making things up. You know NOTHING.

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                          • #14
                            I can tell you that, in general, people who commit violent offenses have history of committing petty offensives first. Correlation is not causation, and in my 4-years of study in criminology, no criminological theory was presented which proved definitively why people commit violent crimes. (There always seems to be exceptions to every rule.)
                            http://firearmsnerd.com/

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Soper View Post
                              If it's not a written LAW, there is no action that can be taken. Stop making things up. You know NOTHING.
                              bulk of my Police Legal education comes from my required High School police "ride along". I was a big clean cut jock with good but not great grades and no "bad influence" friends, and I guess I'd been recommended for recruitment during the ride along, because 3 diff cops including the watch commander hinted at it.

                              One of the main "insider" things I learned was how LAWS are written so vaguely that anyone CAN be treated as a criminal, up until they get a REAL lawyer who is able to bring a serious lawsuit against the police for "Harassment" but that basically takes an act of Congress, and unless the police continue AFTER some judge's order all that happens is the police "back off a bit".

                              "Loitering" is like "balk" in baseball. We stopped and questioned/shook down a guy who was walking normally down the sidewalk. (supposedly drugs/prostitution in the area after 2am).

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