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  • California now requires psych test for armed security

    From the BSIS website: Effective July 1, 2018, a BSIS security guard registrant seeking an initial BSIS firearms permit must complete an assessment for the purposes of determining whether he/she possesses, at the time of the assessment, appropriate judgment, restraint, and self-control to carry a firearm while on duty.

    http://firearmsnerd.com/

  • #2
    I guess that will keep at least one member of this forum out of the biz in CA. I'm not naming any names but it AIN'T Psycho Steve.

    But seriously, I hear these things normally get off to typical bumpy start. Similar to a new judge. Typically, or at least around 12yrs ago, a new judge in Silicon Valley would come in all "law and order" and through the book at everyone. Then crooks lawyers would make a fuss because "outside guidelines" and make lots of work for new judge. After a few weeks, those 14hr days start wearing thin, especially since new judge ends up "losing" almost all the time.

    Expect a lot of new guards to get Dis Qualified in new regime, then appeal, making much work for new regime. Will take maybe year before it settles to "Say these magic words when axed dis question by fake shrink" and everyone is happy and new guards are just taxed extra $100 by new fake shrinks.

    Basically an additional "Live Scan" fee, but just fake BS for some politican's retarded family.

    Who gets to charge for these "assessments"? Answer: someone that is already setup on the inside, because no one else has right paperwork.

    Edit: Looks like I called it perfect.

    "In addition, the bureau secured PSI Services LLC (PSI) to administer the 16pf assessment. PSI is an industry leader in administering licensing, credentialing and public safety tests and has 23 testing centers located throughout California where individuals can take the assessment."

    Sheesh, I honestly thought they'd kinda fake it and have certain "accredited" real Shrinks have guards come in for 15min meet and greet or something.

    There is also something called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minnes...lity_Inventory

    Used by employers and govt. It all "proprietary" (no scientific examination/proofs allowed) and well MARKETED. Lots of claims. IIRC Uni of Florida attempted to create a competing test and "failed". Translation: MMPI is BS. Some UC Berkeley frat used to "haze" pledges by giving them random MMPI results and telling them it was theirs and making the pledges "buy into" the results...then of course cluing them in, to train pledges not to believe in Mind Reading, Astrology, Tarot Cards, etc. Dropped after legal threats.
    Last edited by Squid; 07-12-2018, 10:27 PM.

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    • #3
      No Judge works "14 hour days". No Judge "loses all the time". That's not how the court system works. Please provide proof, not made up "facts" to support your claim.

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      • #4
        The devil will be in the details, but it is a good first step. Anyone allowed to carry a firearm in the scope of employment can be and should be screened. It may also deter some who should not be carrying.

        As far as your comments on the MMPI - it is recognized as a legitimate screening tool and has been around for decades. No psych test is perfect, but its better than just handing people loaded guns and telling them, "Don't shoot anyone unless you have to." I agree with Soper - let's have some facts to boost these assertions that everything is "BS." (When was the incident at UCB? Source?)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Condo Guard View Post
          The devil will be in the details, but it is a good first step. Anyone allowed to carry a firearm in the scope of employment can be and should be screened. It may also deter some who should not be carrying.

          As far as your comments on the MMPI - it is recognized as a legitimate screening tool and has been around for decades. No psych test is perfect, but its better than just handing people loaded guns and telling them, "Don't shoot anyone unless you have to." I agree with Soper - let's have some facts to boost these assertions that everything is "BS." (When was the incident at UCB? Source?)
          Like the polygraph, the MMPI is useful but is not by any means perfect. From the point of view of the employees, I'm glad that it appears already-armed guards won't have to pass the psych test they use; it's one thing to say to someone "you failed this test, so we can't hire you for this job". It's another thing altogether to say to someone "you failed this test, so we have to fire you from the job you already have".

          Of course, it may not so much be a "psych test" but instead a test on whether you truly understand firearms laws and have correct mindset. For example, they could be looking out for things like "if X happens, I GET to shoot the guy", instead of "if X happens, I may HAVE to shoot the guy" and testing to see whether you are a) planning to retreat instead of shooting if safe to do so, and b) understand that you cannot shoot someone to defend property.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Consolewatcher View Post

            Like the polygraph, the MMPI is useful but is not by any means perfect. From the point of view of the employees, I'm glad that it appears already-armed guards won't have to pass the psych test they use; it's one thing to say to someone "you failed this test, so we can't hire you for this job". It's another thing altogether to say to someone "you failed this test, so we have to fire you from the job you already have".

            Of course, it may not so much be a "psych test" but instead a test on whether you truly understand firearms laws and have correct mindset. For example, they could be looking out for things like "if X happens, I GET to shoot the guy", instead of "if X happens, I may HAVE to shoot the guy" and testing to see whether you are a) planning to retreat instead of shooting if safe to do so, and b) understand that you cannot shoot someone to defend property.
            do your own research into this MMPI. its lots of claims and "everyone uses it" but once you try to nail down anything there is nothing there and NO outside review is allowed. Without even checking (never taken a MMPI anything) I'd bet good money that part of taking an MMPI is agreeing not to use for anything except "intended use" one-time license and no "reverse engineering" etc allowed or they could sue.

            Its a Holy Grail "black box".

            The UCB frat I mentioned had done an "informal review" of a number of MMPI results and IIRC found them less accurate than Horoscopes or "Hand Writing" personality tests..

            From wiki: Hathaway and McKinley used an empirical [criterion] keying approach, with clinical scales derived by selecting items that were endorsed by patients known to have been diagnosed with certain pathologies.

            from me: When other legit and capable groups (such as major American universities) have tried this to create competing/similar tests they (as they say in Science) "were not able to duplicate the results". (thats how Scientists say "I think you are full of BS and just made your stuff up to make some easy money off dumb people")

            My Psych 101 professor was a big believer in MMPI and said it was amazing how accurate was for him and recommended we take one. Like I said, the UCB frat got similar results giving pledges other peoples random tests and telling them it was their results. Its just like a horoscope in that everything is so vague it applies to anyone 1/2 normal.

            I always tell Astrologers "ask me all the questions you want, ask anyone who knows me ANY questions (except my birthday) and then tell me may birthday, or even MONTH of birth". No takers to date.

            Same offer to MMPI. Give me the test, then I, or any MMPI True Believer you so chose, picks my MMPI results out of a stack of my and 11 other random MMPI results.

            Just to make it fair, I'll let an MMPI employee hang out or interview folks that know me (GF, buddies, teachers, roomies, parents, employer, etc) and fill out my test for me, although one of MMPI famous claims is that their test is "cheat proof" and will uncover people trying to "out smart the test".

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Squid View Post

              do your own research into this MMPI. its lots of claims and "everyone uses it" but once you try to nail down anything there is nothing there and NO outside review is allowed. Without even checking (never taken a MMPI anything) I'd bet good money that part of taking an MMPI is agreeing not to use for anything except "intended use" one-time license and no "reverse engineering" etc allowed or they could sue.

              Its a Holy Grail "black box".

              The UCB frat I mentioned had done an "informal review" of a number of MMPI results and IIRC found them less accurate than Horoscopes or "Hand Writing" personality tests..

              From wiki: Hathaway and McKinley used an empirical [criterion] keying approach, with clinical scales derived by selecting items that were endorsed by patients known to have been diagnosed with certain pathologies.

              from me: When other legit and capable groups (such as major American universities) have tried this to create competing/similar tests they (as they say in Science) "were not able to duplicate the results". (thats how Scientists say "I think you are full of BS and just made your stuff up to make some easy money off dumb people")

              My Psych 101 professor was a big believer in MMPI and said it was amazing how accurate was for him and recommended we take one. Like I said, the UCB frat got similar results giving pledges other peoples random tests and telling them it was their results. Its just like a horoscope in that everything is so vague it applies to anyone 1/2 normal.

              I always tell Astrologers "ask me all the questions you want, ask anyone who knows me ANY questions (except my birthday) and then tell me may birthday, or even MONTH of birth". No takers to date.

              Same offer to MMPI. Give me the test, then I, or any MMPI True Believer you so chose, picks my MMPI results out of a stack of my and 11 other random MMPI results.

              Just to make it fair, I'll let an MMPI employee hang out or interview folks that know me (GF, buddies, teachers, roomies, parents, employer, etc) and fill out my test for me, although one of MMPI famous claims is that their test is "cheat proof" and will uncover people trying to "out smart the test".
              Yeah, the MMPI and other tests have ways to try to and weed out people who are lying or otherwise manipulate the test. For example, a test will ask "Do you get angry?" If you were trying to answer the "correct" response, you might say "no". A healthy person does get angry at times, though, and if you ver get angry at all it means that you have psychological issues.

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              • #8
                The MMPI and CPI are highly respected and verified tests, used throughout the US and other countries to determine a baseline in psych issues and to determine where on the spectrum the testee is. You can't beat it, no matter what YOU think.

                There is no such thing as an "MMPI employee". Do you really just makes things up or are that dumb?

                Squids blithe dismissal of it, and his acknowledgement that he's never taken it, yet criticizes it, shows exactly where he is coming from: utter ignorance.

                It doesn't take a shrink to see what issues squid has. He would be better served if he spoke about the very limited security experience he has ( guarding dirt lots), and not try and discuss things so far out of his ken that he embarrasses himself each time he posts.

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                • #9
                  California requires security officers who wish to carry a firearm to take two days of training, pass a test, apply for a permit, and now pass a phycological test. California also requires armed security to pass shooting tests 4 times in two years to keep their permit. I have no problem with background checks, training requirements, and licensing to work security. I would rather see more intensive training requirements for security, but not just to carry a firearm. Keeping a gun for self-defense is a constitutional right and should not have additional regulatory tests to permit.
                  http://firearmsnerd.com/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Soper View Post
                    and verified tests,
                    link to ANY verification, much less by a neutral or skeptical party?


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Soper View Post
                      The MMPI and CPI are highly respected and verified tests, used throughout the US and other countries to determine a baseline in psych issues and to determine where on the spectrum the testee is. You can't beat it, no matter what YOU think.

                      There is no such thing as an "MMPI employee". Do you really just makes things up or are that dumb?

                      Squids blithe dismissal of it, and his acknowledgement that he's never taken it, yet criticizes it, shows exactly where he is coming from: utter ignorance.

                      It doesn't take a shrink to see what issues squid has. He would be better served if he spoke about the very limited security experience he has ( guarding dirt lots), and not try and discuss things so far out of his ken that he embarrasses himself each time he posts.
                      The MMPI and other psych tests are useful, but they're not by any means "perfect". You may not necessarily be able to "beat" it, but by having detailed knowledge about it you can have a definite advantage.

                      I don't have an issue with it being used as part of the initial hiring process. However, given the fact that the test is not 100% reliable, I have issues with using it as a "pass this or you lose your job" test.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Consolewatcher View Post

                        The MMPI and other psych tests are useful, but they're not by any means "perfect". You may not necessarily be able to "beat" it, but by having detailed knowledge about it you can have a definite advantage.

                        I don't have an issue with it being used as part of the initial hiring process. However, given the fact that the test is not 100% reliable, I have issues with using it as a "pass this or you lose your job" test.
                        AFAIK, MMPI isn't just "not 100% reliable" but most likely less than 0%, in that its findings will be less accurate than random assigned results. When a fellow student asked our MMPI fan-boy professor (who was otherwise big on Scientific Method) about any independent verification of MMPI's incredible, magical powers, our prof quickly changed the subject. I'm gonna go way out on a limb and guess that all MMPI stuff is very legally protected and anyone doing an independent study will be sued for "illegal use", copyright, etc.

                        IIRC there is something I'd call the "Quack Effect" (has another name but forgot). It means that people will believe and embrace a Quack's findings (and course of treatment) BECAUSE, not in spite of, the Quack being not just inaccurate, but completely off the mark and creating pure fiction. That is because the Quack's findings will be something you never dreamed of, so you assume he must know more than you.

                        Once your average HR drone or manager gets a printout from the wizards from MMPI, the drone then feels it is their job to see the MMRI claims in the subject, and failure to do so means the HR drone is point of failure, not MMPI. Whats an HR drone gonna say? "These tests some saleman conned the boss into paying are less accurate than newspaper free horoscope"?

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                        • #13
                          The essence of contract security has always been about mitigating liability and responsibly. Regardless of the accuracy of the testing the fact that it was used absolves the company in case the guard does something stupid. The Miami nightclub shooting being the extreme case but between the government psychological testing and background checks pretty much allowed G4S to claim innocence in the whole matter .
                          Confronted with the choice, the American people would choose the policeman's truncheon over the anarchist's bomb.
                          Spiro Agnew

                          Why yes I am a glorified babysitter , I am here to politely ask you to follow the rules , if not daddy comes to spank you and put you in time out its your choice - Me

                          Luck is a red hair woman , if you ever dated one you know there remarkably dangerous , my personal preference is to be competent and let luck join the ride if she so chooses .- Clint Smith

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by psycosteve View Post
                            The Miami nightclub shooting being the extreme case but between the government psychological testing and background checks

                            You mean MMPI type testing couldn't tell the diff between your typical "just doing it for easy bucks till my real career restarts" guy and a complete PSYCHO (no offense Steve) planning an epic mass murder (apparently with all sorts of Muslim-gay inner conflicts of shooter)???

                            Imagine my shock. lol

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Squid View Post


                              You mean MMPI type testing couldn't tell the diff between your typical "just doing it for easy bucks till my real career restarts" guy and a complete PSYCHO (no offense Steve) planning an epic mass murder (apparently with all sorts of Muslim-gay inner conflicts of shooter)???

                              Imagine my shock. lol
                              My perspective of the security industry tends to be pretty skewed due to my experiences. I realized that security tends to attract those who are not employable at other jobs. The rapid hiring and mass firing cycles that has become a major part of contract security. Due to the low wages there is not a lot of incentive to hire and groom quality line guards. The issue becomes with armed guards is can you get enough demand to keep your armed guys working or fill the demands you have currently for them. Security companies will always look for the cheapest way to do things. Substandard training and cheap just sign them off psychological testing done at bulk rates. I saw plenty of them in PA to get an armed security license and local collages doing act 203 law enforcement certification.
                              Confronted with the choice, the American people would choose the policeman's truncheon over the anarchist's bomb.
                              Spiro Agnew

                              Why yes I am a glorified babysitter , I am here to politely ask you to follow the rules , if not daddy comes to spank you and put you in time out its your choice - Me

                              Luck is a red hair woman , if you ever dated one you know there remarkably dangerous , my personal preference is to be competent and let luck join the ride if she so chooses .- Clint Smith

                              Comment

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