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  • Squid
    replied
    Originally posted by Condo Guard View Post
    or asked about the computer they were hauling out of the building at 10:00pm.)
    best thing to do is have the most tech illiterate least edumucated member of the Security staff "wave through" a also low ranking (hopefully female) employee and the computer she is carrying "no need to check the computer, miss, da boss gots dees eyes in da walls dats sees every computer each time it come ins or outs...and other stuff too".



    "One place even fired a long time employee because even though he was good at his job, he went out of his way to harass the S/Os, without ever being able to say why or what his beef was. I was very impressed with the client's managers for doing that."

    I bet client's managers were very happy that Security was able to be the Canary In The Coal Mine and reveal his personality rather than it involve other actual employees. Once the feathers fly its takes forever for the dust to settle. People be taking sides, soon you either got a "fire everyone" or "deal with smoldering resentments" choice.

    Guys like that are always on the "fire as soon as we get chance". You obviously can't trust them to represent the firm or manage people, even if they did great in past even in outside sales, etc. I've noticed when a company can plan to fire someone they can do it without costing money, AND can really "punish" the employee on his way out. He was doing great in a booming field but strangely enough no one wants to hire him. Then no one wants to hire him at a entry level low wage job because he was making so much more it screams "something not right" or "he will just bail for higher pay in a week, why bother". That last one was an issue getting my 1st Security gig after decades of Construction union wages.
    Last edited by Squid; 12-22-2018, 04:51 PM.

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  • Condo Guard
    replied
    @ Lone Wolf: I appreciate your comment. As I mentioned, I agree with your original point of having situational awareness. To put this discussion in context (since you are a junior member), this forum has had some epic trolls and a few posters who almost reached the level of "Mall Ninja." Don't take it personally, it's just a bit of a sore spot here. While we are not LE or military, certainly some skills from those fields come into play, and that's not being a "wannabe."

    Lunch Meat, I will disagree about the client taking the customer's side every time. Yes, I worked at one place (briefly) where we were essentially window dressing - one complaint from ANY employee or vendor and you got removed from the site. (Thus, you basically sat around and looked concerned, but never challenged anyone for their ID or asked about the computer they were hauling out of the building at 10:00pm.) But two of the places I've worked at the client was solidly on the side of Security - even if you made a mistake, as long as you were using common sense and were following policy in good faith, you would not get a serious reprimand. One place even fired a long time employee because even though he was good at his job, he went out of his way to harass the S/Os, without ever being able to say why or what his beef was. I was very impressed with the client's managers for doing that.
    Last edited by Condo Guard; 12-22-2018, 02:58 PM.

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  • Lone Wolf
    replied
    I’m not here to argue with anyone. I just believe what I believe, and know what I know.

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  • Lunch Meat
    replied
    Originally posted by Consolewatcher View Post

    Being a security guard does generally confer a type of authority on them, however, it is different than the kind of authority than that of law enforcement. In this case, the guard is delegated the authority by the property owner to enforce their access control rules, and deleted the authority by company management to enforce the rules of the company.

    Any time a person is delegated/granted authority to do something, it comes with limitations and policies. For example, banking loan officers have rules on who they can issue loans to, doctors have rules on what they can prescribe, police officers have rules on how to handle certain crimes, etc. The problem with the guard you mentioned wasn't that he used his authority to perform his access control duties, it was that he ignored clear policies and procedures.

    Thank you for explaining my post to me, I really appreciated that.

    I am aware that my example didn't really fit the scenario of making decisions on your own but I've actually been pretty lucky in my time in security that I've always had pretty clear post orders. There really weren't a lot of things that were left to the guard's discretion. The times that I was presented with a situation that wasn't in my post orders werel fairly rare I really didn't have to make too many decisions.

    As far as the authority thing goes, you may have a certain MINIMAL amount of authority delegated to you by the client but in reality you have no means of enforcement therefore you really have no authority. The extent of your "authority" is "Obey the client's rules or I'll ask you to leave" IOW "Stop! or I'll say stop again." and IME if push comes to shove the client will side with their employee or customer over security Every. Single. Time.





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  • Consolewatcher
    replied
    Originally posted by Lunch Meat View Post
    I think the biggest mistake that most security guards make is believing that their position as a security guard confers some type of authority on them.

    This goes back to my earlier post about not making decisions that are above your pay grade. As an example I once worked at a site where the rules were 100% ID check no exceptions.

    If a client employee showed up without their employee ID the rule was that you called security control verified that the employee was still an employee in good standing and if so issue them a temporary ID. The entire process usually took 5 minutes.

    One morning a management-level employees showed up at the guard shack and claimed that he had left his employee ID sitting on his desk. Rather than follow the very clear post orders for that situation my coworker decided to make the guy sit at the gate for 20 minutes until I could return from my rounds to escort the guy to his office and verify his ID. He did it strictly to prove that he was in charge.

    By the time I got back to the gate the employee (remember management-level) was FUMING. I took the guy to his office, I verified his ID, I apologized for the inconvenience and I left. The last thing the client employee said to me was "I'm going to have your buddy's job."

    A week later my "buddy" was guarding parking lot downtown. From an open guard shack in the winter.
    Being a security guard does generally confer a type of authority on them, however, it is different than the kind of authority than that of law enforcement. In this case, the guard is delegated the authority by the property owner to enforce their access control rules, and deleted the authority by company management to enforce the rules of the company.

    Any time a person is delegated/granted authority to do something, it comes with limitations and policies. For example, banking loan officers have rules on who they can issue loans to, doctors have rules on what they can prescribe, police officers have rules on how to handle certain crimes, etc. The problem with the guard you mentioned wasn't that he used his authority to perform his access control duties, it was that he ignored clear policies and procedures.

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  • Lunch Meat
    replied
    I think the biggest mistake that most security guards make is believing that their position as a security guard confers some type of authority on them.

    This goes back to my earlier post about not making decisions that are above your pay grade. As an example I once worked at a site where the rules were 100% ID check no exceptions.

    If a client employee showed up without their employee ID the rule was that you called security control verified that the employee was still an employee in good standing and if so issue them a temporary ID. The entire process usually took 5 minutes.

    One morning a management-level employees showed up at the guard shack and claimed that he had left his employee ID sitting on his desk. Rather than follow the very clear post orders for that situation my coworker decided to make the guy sit at the gate for 20 minutes until I could return from my rounds to escort the guy to his office and verify his ID. He did it strictly to prove that he was in charge.

    By the time I got back to the gate the employee (remember management-level) was FUMING. I took the guy to his office, I verified his ID, I apologized for the inconvenience and I left. The last thing the client employee said to me was "I'm going to have your buddy's job."

    A week later my "buddy" was guarding parking lot downtown. From an open guard shack in the winter.

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  • Lunch Meat
    replied
    Originally posted by Consolewatcher View Post
    The problem with comparing law enforcement and security is that they're two different fields. Security isn't "above" or "below" corrections on the law enforcement pyramid; they are in their own pyramid.

    Security is not law enforcement. Neither are doctors, accountants, truck drivers, restaurant cooks, schoolteachers, etc. Does that make their job "less" of a job? Of course not.

    As for these "warrior"-type security jobs? I have mixed feelings. Some people who take them are people who know they could never get into law enforcement, and figure it's the closest things to it they can get. However, to be honest, I've seen this field a lot. If I look at a lot of the guard I've met who are in "hands-on" position, most of them are now working in well-paying careers policing, corrections, etc. A lot of the people I've met over the years who things security should always be "observe and report" are still working as low-wage security guards.

    I'm not a slug. I show up for work every shift on time, in a proper uniform and ready to work. I check everything I'm supposed to check every time I'm supposed to check it and if something's out of whack I report it to the appropriate people.

    What I DON'T do is make decisions that are above my paygrade, which is pretty much all of them. Most things that occur in a given shift are covered in my post orders.

    If something occurs that isn't covered in my post orders I hand the decision off either to my supervisor or to the client employee supervisor AND I document THE HELL out of it.

    That way if the decision turns out to be the wrong decision I can point up the food chain and say hey I followed this person's instructions.

    I tell everybody I train to make as few decisions as possible. I told him to bump it up and let somebody above you decide that.

    I have never known that formula to fail

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  • Lunch Meat
    replied
    Originally posted by Soper View Post

    A security guard is ABOVE a sworn Corrections Officer? You’re really going to maintain that and claim if we don’t embrace that we are mediocre?
    Not all COs are sworn but I can't imagine a situation in which I would be in a position to either take orders from or give orders to a corrections officer.
    Last edited by Lunch Meat; 12-21-2018, 04:06 AM.

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  • Consolewatcher
    replied
    The problem with comparing law enforcement and security is that they're two different fields. Security isn't "above" or "below" corrections on the law enforcement pyramid; they are in their own pyramid.

    Security is not law enforcement. Neither are doctors, accountants, truck drivers, restaurant cooks, schoolteachers, etc. Does that make their job "less" of a job? Of course not.

    As for these "warrior"-type security jobs? I have mixed feelings. Some people who take them are people who know they could never get into law enforcement, and figure it's the closest things to it they can get. However, to be honest, I've seen this field a lot. If I look at a lot of the guard I've met who are in "hands-on" position, most of them are now working in well-paying careers policing, corrections, etc. A lot of the people I've met over the years who things security should always be "observe and report" are still working as low-wage security guards.

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  • Soper
    replied
    Originally posted by Lone Wolf View Post
    Yes “guard” as in guardian. We are a part of the warrior class. You have military at the top, police below them, then us, then corrections below us. Anyone who doesn’t embrace that has chosen to embrace mediocrity.
    A security guard is ABOVE a sworn Corrections Officer? You’re really going to maintain that and claim if we don’t embrace that we are mediocre?

    You are a dollar an hour guard. That’s it. All those others are so far above you, you need a ladder to touch them.

    You are NOT a Guardian. You merely watch a piece of something for money. Squid was correct in his response.

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  • Squid
    replied
    Originally posted by Lone Wolf View Post
    Yes “guard” as in guardian. We are a part of the warrior class. You have military at the top, police below them, then us, then corrections below us. Anyone who doesn’t embrace that has chosen to embrace mediocrity.




    Originally posted by Soper View Post
    No. You are NOT a "warrior class." You are a guard.



    I disagree with most of what Soper says (as well as his constant harassment of Squid) but in this instance he is spot on.



    I agree with ORIGINAL "warrior class" statement. As a guy in Security uniform at a rough "nightclub" you are "warrior class" in that as in the ORIGINAL post you really need to keep your eyes open for your own safety. Other employees not so much, even at dangerous post.

    On the other hand I see all sorts of guards who have talked themselves into some "Warrior Class" hype and go around doing far too much and mostly creating liability the client and certainly his Underwriter would much rather not happen.

    Easy to get confused with what you think is morally right IF you were in charge of morals (you ain't) with what is GOOD FOR YOU as a very replaceable employee with a client who could give two farts about you.

    Best thing to do is almost always "nothing" and/or "bail the premises", MAYBE make a call after you are safely well off site on a hidden side street....but be careful what you say, liability can be a weird thing.

    Honestly, your best bet is to just bail, and call about your last paycheck about a week later, and don't answer any questions unless they are fronting about $10G for you to hire your own lawyer. Your job was "visual deterrent" and if that didn't work out so be it but you should feel no obligation to put yourself at legal or other risk.

    Anyone ever worked for a firm that said "similar to Police Unions, we retain PRE-PAID legal services of a top law firm for any of our Guards that get into any legal trouble related to their duties at Acme Security. Legal Slush Fund is PRE-PAID and yours as soon as hired and can't be taken away by The Firm"????

    IMO a good Guard is part of the Snitch Class. About the only thing a Guard really owes client is to OBSERVE AND REPORT (not observe and decide not to report so people don't get in trouble).

    Comes back to why I always tell young folks to check out Security. As Security you are part of Management and mostly report (and get face time with) The Big Boss.

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  • Lunch Meat
    replied
    Originally posted by Lone Wolf View Post
    Yes “guard” as in guardian. We are a part of the warrior class. You have military at the top, police below them, then us, then corrections below us. Anyone who doesn’t embrace that has chosen to embrace mediocrity.
    Originally posted by Soper View Post
    No. You are NOT a "warrior class." You are a guard.
    I disagree with most of what Soper says (as well as his constant harassment of Squid) but in this instance he is spot on.

    I am aware that there are different levels of guards but most of us are doing access control/observe and report not guarding Fort Calhoun. I am not member of the warrior class (anymore) nor am I any part of the "law enforcement team".

    The he danger in security comes from the fact that our job inevitably brings us into conflict with people who A. Want to do whatever they want to do and B. Certainly don't want to be told different by a GD security guard.

    I've made it clear to my supervisor that I have no intention of confronting a burglar should I run into such at work. I will call the police and let them handle it.




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  • Lone Wolf
    replied
    Ok, maybe I took too big a swig of the bravado juice about warrior class, but my point still stands.

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  • Condo Guard
    replied
    Yes, I would rank Corrections above us. I'd also remind all of us (myself included) that there is a wide range of security - the guy working at the food depot in Afghanistan has a different skill set than the guy guarding a dirt pile and watching movies or sleeping in his rig.

    I think Lone Wolf's original point is valid - one of the biggest dangers in security is complacency, and I see it very day. (I'm also guilty of it myself - I've walked into a least three situations that could have turned out badly because I was tired and not paying attention. The one serious injury I ever got, getting hit by a car, was really my own darn fault. A painful but necessary life lesson.)

    At worst, we're just scarecrows with a badge, providing a visual deterrent to the lazy criminals. At our best, we are part of the emergency services & criminal justice apparatus that keeps society safe. A lot of what I do is in the middle - I catch the little stuff (unlocked doors, malfunctioning alarm panels, trip & fall hazards) before they become big stuff or a lawsuit. "Warrior class"? Eh - I'll go with what I tell other guards when they ask what type of security I've done - "Unarmed Adult Babysitter."

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  • Consolewatcher
    replied
    Originally posted by Lone Wolf View Post
    Yes “guard” as in guardian. We are a part of the warrior class. You have military at the top, police below them, then us, then corrections below us. Anyone who doesn’t embrace that has chosen to embrace mediocrity.
    Actually, I'd say that we fall somewhere between a school crossing guard and a sneeze guard.

    Heck, when I first started out in security, I worked as a sneeze guard at a local buffet restaurant. Sadly, a month into my job they replaced me with a pane of glass. Cheap bastards.

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