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United did NOTHING wrong (neither did cops)

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Consolewatcher View Post

    From what I read, they are security with limited police powers (ie "special police"). The powers-that-be are saying that while they have some police powers they shouldn't have "police" on their uniforms as they are not "full"/"regular" police officers.


    Well, from what I read, thanks again to TOII, they're POST certified but, not allowed to carry firearms on the job.
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    • #17
      The fact no one seems to know WTF the guys were and what their level of authority is proves my point about why its a bad idea to let all sorts of little bureaucracies (some with well defined physical jurisdictions, some without) go around without any adult supervision creating their own little police forces, almost always with lower standards of hiring and training than regular cops.

      Its it still "disobeying the lawful orders of a PO" if its a transit cop 5 miles away from subway? What about campus cops off campus, like at the mall off campus?

      The fact that is perfectly legal for police to lie to citizens complicates this issue.

      In fact, it might turn out to be THE issue here. Vids seem to show a guy in jeans without gun or duty belt.

      Maybe if it had been someone who was clearly a Real Cop he would have come peacefully.

      For all we know Dr Perv may have thought Mr Blue Jeans was a fellow semi-out of control passenger trying to 'take matters into his own hands'.
      Last edited by Squid; 04-21-2017, 02:23 PM.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Consolewatcher View Post

        From what I read, they are security with limited police powers (ie "special police"). The powers-that-be are saying that while they have some police powers they shouldn't have "police" on their uniforms as they are not "full"/"regular" police officers.


        The only "powers that be" that are saying this are dept of aviation leaders AFTER the fact. and as stated they are limited leos.....this is not uncommon.

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        • #19
          Squid...do you think subway stops are the only places transit officers work? do you realize that they (BART) DO have statewide authority? Bart wouldnt be a good example of this aviation police department though...It is an odd duck. I do believe that they might be similar to LEO III in South Carolina. Some of them work airports. Orange County Sheriff in California has a special classification for persons assigned to John Wayne as well.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Squid View Post

            prob is then you got three things:

            1)lots of cops driving around in areas that aren't in their jurisdiction. Example: a community college district with several campuses, or BART cops (transit). you don't want low level LEO to be all "specialized" (not tasked to deal with the other 98% of probs in their area)

            2)lots of mid-level bureaucrats with their own little private armies that are even more insulated from voters that normal cops. Now you got some faceless BART or college "manager" empowered to hand out basically free money to LEO. Yeah, I've seen this at colleges, where a new manager came in with "full support of campus police" and basically let them do whatever they wanted, which seemed to be sleeping and hiding.

            3)bureaucrats inventing reasons to increase budgets, bloat and overhead. In the private sector, the market keeps overhead like security lean and mean, which is why you rarely see a private company wanting Private Police Force in budget. IIRC the rare exceptions are Rail Roads.

            Just because an "agency" is in public sector shouldn't give them any authority to create new LE depts. Take same money and give it to whatever county or city jurisdiction they are in.

            That will reduce govt growth, mission creep, etc.

            They can do what Night Clubs do and have a "police detail".
            I don't know what state you live in, and don't know how pandemic the alleged issues you've described are.

            There are plenty of places that have designated LEO forces that benefit the facility security plan enormously. I do not think that a facility successfully maximizing their response to risk should be prohibited because you can think of some bureaucratic red tape, or a single example of an apparently mismanaged college campus policing program.

            I would argue that managing security risk is more important than many of the examples you've given. I do agree that those which are not operating properly - like the college, for example - should pull up their socks, but you're ignoring the cases where sworn LEOs are specific in their duties as related to a facility or a venue. Note that most or many of these are in the critical infrastructure sector.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Squid View Post
              The fact no one seems to know WTF the guys were and what their level of authority is proves my point about why its a bad idea to let all sorts of little bureaucracies (some with well defined physical jurisdictions, some without) go around without any adult supervision creating their own little police forces, almost always with lower standards of hiring and training than regular cops.
              No, the fact that nobody seems to know this group or classification is representative not of your point, but rather of many of ours' simple ignorance of this aspect of aviation security.

              If you wanted to go with a solid argument, it would be based on facts. What you're trying to do now is "I don't know, so therefore this is true."

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              • #22
                Originally posted by TOII View Post
                Squid...do you think subway stops are the only places transit officers work? do you realize that they (BART) DO have statewide authority? Bart wouldnt be a good example of this aviation police department though...It is an odd duck. I do believe that they might be similar to LEO III in South Carolina. Some of them work airports. Orange County Sheriff in California has a special classification for persons assigned to John Wayne as well.
                I've been told that when a car was fresh broken into just outside BART parking, like they heard the alarm and glass breaking fresh, BART cops told them "You need to call city dept" and didn't even offer to summon them.

                Then again, BART can take you through 4 little counties in 30 minutes, so even Sheriffs don't have broad enough jurisdiction. Should be CHiPs/State detail, IMO. BART mostly follows freeways where they already got little CHiPs outposts.

                Knew a guy trying to become a BART cop who was on a dozen diff mental health 'scripts, because BART had lower standards for LEOs. This was before the famous execution style killing of Oscar Grant.

                I was roused from a Cal Trans train parking lot on Sunday where I'd met a guy to buy a car. Totally vacant lot, except for the Transit Cop with brand new SUV, and no it wasn't going to be OK for me to leave a car for two hours if I wasn't a train rider.

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                • #23
                  The state of California sets minimum standards for LEO's through an organization known as POST. BART officers have jurisdiction on AND ABOUT properties owned and operated by BART as well as on and about their rights of way. also as fully certified peace officers have authority any place in the state.

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