Article on mall security

[11B/PMC]

http://www.policeone.com/terrorism/articles/1213296/

Would a heavily armed, mall security force with massive presence make a difference? Maybe, maybe not, but Management will never know because they'll never pay for it.

How many of you, when you walk past those little signs at mall entrances that say "NO GUNS" go running back to your vehicle and become "mall compliant"?

Bad guys don't pick hard targets. Not many shooting rampages at nuclear plants these days!

[SecTrainer]

http://www.policeone.com/terrorism/articles/1213296/

How many of you, when you walk past those little signs at mall entrances that say "NO GUNS" go running back to your vehicle and become "mall compliant"?

I would hope, all of us. Beyond the power of public statute to exclude certain locations (schools, bars, government offices, etc.) from the citizen's right to carry, property owners also have the absolute right to define and exclude forms of "contraband" for that property, including knives/weapons, alcohol, illicit drugs, animals (with some restriction for guide dogs) and many other items as well. Your presence on the property with such items, especially when you have been given notice by signs, verbal warnings, etc., can constitute a form of trespass (presuming there are not other crimes defined by the act), even if your presence would otherwise be legitimate without the contraband.

[11B/PMC]

That's all nice and pretty, SecTrainer, cut and pasted like a true pro. You should write a letter to the Property Managers office for that mall in Utah, tell them they should have bigger signs at the entrance doors so something like this doesn't happen again.

Many of us live in locations where preemption laws exist. Private facilities may ask those carrying firearms to leave, in which case most permit-holders will do so, but that individual will not face weapons or trespassing charges unless further confontation continues. And those who carry consciously, concealed with a permit, will normally not draw a lot of attention by the security staff.

I meant this in a "protect yourself at all times" tone. If you want to debate gun-rights and defensive tactics, I'll steer you to some other forums or you can PM me.

[SecTrainer]

That's all nice and pretty, SecTrainer, cut and pasted like a true pro.

Huh?

Many of us live in locations where preemption laws exist. Private facilities may ask those carrying firearms to leave, in which case most permit-holders will do so, but that individual will not face weapons or trespassing charges unless further confontation continues. And those who carry consciously, concealed with a permit, will normally not draw a lot of attention by the security staff.

Whether you happen to get caught or "draw attention" is hardly the point, is it?

If you want to debate gun-rights and defensive tactics, I'll steer you to some other forums or you can PM me.

As someone who's had CCW permits in three different states for more years than I care to remember, I'm not debating gun rights (I'm for 'em!), and that's not what this thread (nor any comments I made) was about at all. However, since you bring gun rights into the conversation, I might make the observation that the quickest way for all of us to LOSE our gun rights is for the people who have permits to decide that they can make up their own rules about where they can and can't carry them!!

You mention "defensive tactics" also, although I haven't a clue how that subject came up. So, I'll just comment that I carry a couple of defensive weapons other than firearms that aren't prohibited anywhere, and have considerable empty-hand training in two different systems, so I don't HAVE to carry a firearm to feel "protected at all times", as you put it. Your firearm won't help you one bit in most self-defensive situations anyway, as they won't be situations where you can draw down on someone. If you need your gun to feel safe in the mall, you should look at acquiring other defensive methods, or pick another mall maybe?

We should feel sorry for anyone whose self-defense capabilities and strategies are so limited that he only feels "safe" when he's packing heat (to the point that he's even willing to violate property restrictions) or else creep around in fear for his life. Thank God, I don't have that problem. Why, just yesterday I ran down to the grocery store for some milk without my gun and somehow managed to make it back home alive (maneuvering my shopping cart around the dozens of bodies littering the aisles out of a natural respect for the dead, of course).

[HotelSecurity]

11B/PMC

I thnk his point is that since we are supposed to be enforcing rules & laws we should be the last to break rules & laws.

[Chucky]

So if the off duty officer that was shopping and on the scene as it happened had his weapon then no fewer people would have died? Is that what you are trying to tell us??

[11B/PMC]

SecTrainer
I wonder how many of the Utah mall victims had mace and all the high-speed gadgets you probably carry on your key chain. If you were there, you could have just walked up to the bad guy and open-handed him into submission. We need more people like you out there out on the street.

Your duty to protect yourself and your family sometimes takes on-the-fly thinking and tactics (for instance, when you're walking into a mall). Unless we all lived in that great town that you live in, where all the bad guys read the signs and follow the rules before attacking people.

You are right about finding a different place to shop. Do it all the time. My little protest against the issue. I hope my point is clear. Stay armed, don't be a victim, don't let the do-gooders get a foothold on your safety with their little "signs".

SecTrainer, you're always going to debate me on this issue, and others like it. And, you have me at an advantage, because you are actually 100% correct. We should follow the rules, we should be able to trust in the system that says it has us all protected. However, the real world is a little bit more volitile than your classroom, and Utah proved that. I stand tall with many people who are tired of being forced into a lower level of protection because the Poh-leece and guys like you think you can protect us all on your own with your little gadgets.

When I get back to "the office" in a few weeks, there will be signs posted everywhere, in several languages, telling people what to do and where to go. Some government has it all figured out on what's good for society. And nothing could be further from the truth. No one is safe there. And that could happen here as well. We are a young society compared to the rest of the world. And evil seems to be the leading dictator for so many cultures that have been around for thousands of years. We have to be better prepared than the bad guy. Or maybe we could just put up some more signs!

[Chucky]

AH come on 11B/PMC you know full well that no one would ever violate a restraining order much less a warning sign at a mall. According to an article on the news the cop was able to slow the killer down by distracting him with talk. But if the cop had his piece then he could have permanently distracted him with a head shot before anyone else got hurt.

[11B/PMC]

I'm with you 100%, Chucky, the best defense is overwhelming, accurate and superior firepower. Move, shoot and communicate!

I gotta be careful, I'm starting to sound like one of those guys who spends their vacation time every year at the NRA convention in Vegas.

All kidding aside, I don't think anyone can deny that someone with the right training and tools could have stopped that situation sooner. If any of you have seen the footage, it goes on for quite some time. People were still being executed well after the initial PD response.

That's just one case. We could recount scenarios that have happened in this country all day long. And it will continue to happen at establishments that disarm good citizens at the front door.

[Bill Warnock]

So if the off duty officer that was shopping and on the scene as it happened had his weapon then no fewer people would have died? Is that what you are trying to tell us??

Chucky, did I read or hear something incorrectly, I thought I heard and then read the Ogden PD officer was under arms when he confronted the shooter? Or did he just use verbal skills to slow the shooter down?
Sincerely,
Bill

[SecTrainer]

The citation of instances where someone would be glad they were armed doesn't answer the question of whether we should make up our own rules about where we can or should carry based on what is actually the rather remote chance that we're going to run into the need for a gun. (I know lots of cops who will tell you that even as cops they worked their entire careers without confronting a gunman.)

As I said above, it's people like you who make up their own rules about carrying guns who will sooner or later see to it that the gun-control crowd will win and none of us get to carry them at all, and I really wish you'd stop doing that. Having the privilege of carrying a weapon SOME of the time is lots better than NONE of the time, isn't it?

Anyone can make the case to carry a gun anywhere by citing examples. Guns have been with us a long time, and someone has probably used one in every place it's possible to use one.

I worked a case when I was a cop where a man's wife shot him while he was soaking in the tub. I suppose he probably realized in those last seconds that he should have had the the foresight to carry his .45 into the tub with him. Alas, all he had was a bar of soap and his yellow rubber ducky (truthfully!), and a fat lot of good they did him!

As for the reference to the "classroom" (the old ivory-tower-ad-hominem attack again - very tiresome), I'm speaking from a very wide experience of lots of places you would hardly call a "classroom" including enforcing the law in what we used to call the "ghetto" but now call "challenged communities". I'm not bragging by any means - just don't want you to continue to labor under an obvious misunderstanding of where I come from.

Something else you should know is that in many jurisdictions your CCW license will be yanked and not renewed even if there's a misdemeanor charge involving a firearm on your record. Is that worth it to you in order to try to prove that you can carry any time, anywhere you choose? Perhaps, but it's not worth it to me. One of the ways I protect my right to carry is by not abusing it.

[Rooney]

The OPD officer was armed. He stated on a morning show that he wished he had a clear shot at the guy. The guy was behind a kiosk so the Ogden officer fired a round above him to distract him from the patrons. Soon after the Salt Lake PD was on scene.

11B/PMC.... The right to carry under the law differs from state to state. If it is posted not to bring weapons into the mall then I for one would leave mine in the car. The OPD officer is not under the same restrictions. I agree however that taking weapons away from law abiding citizens "can" in some circumstances hurt the situation. But, in some instances allowing weapons can also make the situation much worse. If there were 50 people with CCW firing their weapons at the guy I'm sure he would've been dead sooner but so could have many others from stray rounds.

[Chucky]

Chucky, did I read or hear something incorrectly, I thought I heard and then read the Ogden PD officer was under arms when he confronted the shooter? Or did he just use verbal skills to slow the shooter down?
Sincerely,
Bill

Could be that I heard it wrong but on GMA when they showed the footage they said the unarmed off duty officer was taking cover as he heard shots fired and the cop with the shot gun stood his ground and was firing back. I will look on you tube and see if the narrated version is there.

Quote
Salt Lake City Police Chief Chris Burbank said the rampage could have been even worse if not for the quick actions of an off-duty officer from Ogden, Ken Hammond, who engaged Talovic in a shootout before other officers arrived.Quote

Sorry gentlemen I stand corrected I swear that the reporter said that the officer engaged the shooter in conversation until help arrived.

[Chucky]

I'm with you 100%, Chucky, the best defense is overwhelming, accurate and superior firepower. Move, shoot and communicate!

You also must be ex military as that is what I was taught when I was in and can see where that would differ somewhat from the way civilian law enforcement is taught. I know in my state we are limited to the type of weapon we can buy. I really like the Tarus 24/7 as unsavory as the name implies it is a great side arm. But not in this state. The bad guys have the superior firepower.

[Black Caesar]

This is a real good example of why I carry off duty *most of the time*. That 1 in a million event that probaly will never happen to most of us, but that will see you severly screwed over if you're not prepared. You can't just go by "well, It hasen;'t happened to me so far" , because that kind of thinking is dangerous.

I say most of the time because sometimes it's just not practical, like when we were on vaction in Georgia and going to the beach.

If I'm by my self, it could be around 70/30 if I'm carrying, sometimes I'll take the risk of not carrying, even though deep down I know that's foolish.

Me and the wife out togehter, it goes to about 85/15 (that 15% of the time I'm not carry might be Church, or somewhere else where it's not appropriate).

If it's me and either or both of our kids, you can be 100% sure that my weapon is somewhere in reach (i've got 2 girls).

Thanks be to gracious God, in 10 years as a LEO I've never had to use it on or off duty, I'm not fool enough to go around starting gun fights when there doesn't need to be one. The mantra that is beat into our heads as Cadets, and that I live by and Teach my trainees, is "Be prepared, but mainly just be a Good Witness unless you're left with no other possible choice but to use force".