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  • #16
    I'll not comment on Canadian law, about which I know nothing, but about the logistics of the situation more generally.

    "Arrest" is not usually the only, or necessarily the best, option available in situations such as this. To a great extent, however, the following suggestion depends on how clearly you can see the individual in the video (how certain you are of his identity).

    If you can clearly identify him, it may be sufficient to contact the individual in question when you see him, politely ask for a moment of his time ("May I speak with you privately for just a moment? Thanks very much."), and let him know what you have seen on videotape. You advise him in the most friendly way that this constitutes evidence of a crime should the victim elect to prosecute. However, you have a solution that should satisfy everyone. You arrange for the return of the laptop, and make it clear that he is to check out of the hotel and never return. He's very likely to see the advantage of this solution to his future.

    So long as you do not detain the individual forcibly, "take him to the security office", nor indicate by anything you say that he is not free to terminate the conversation with you and leave, and as long as the conversation is relatively brief (you can do this in 5 minutes or less), it is highly unlikely that this kind of contact would be interpreted as an "arrest", or expose you to any significant degree of liability. (You can, and should, of course, direct him to some very nearby out-of-the-way alcove or anywhere close to your initial point of contact that allows you to talk with him away from ear-shot of other people.)

    Although some of what we do in private policing does unfortunately lead down the pathway to arrests, making an arrest is NOT our primary objective, nor are we obliged by any affidavit or oath to make arrests when we happen to have knowledge of a crime (particularly a property crime). This is why private policing is so much more powerful than public policing - we have a multitude of better objectives, options and solutions available to us that the public police, frankly, do not have.

    So - if you look at this as a "problem-solving" situation instead of a "crime" situation, you can perhaps identify better approaches than simply whether to make an arrest or not.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 02-07-2007, 09:55 AM.
    "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

    "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

    "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

    "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

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    • #17
      Originally posted by SecTrainer
      I'll not comment on Canadian law, about which I know nothing, but about the logistics of the situation more generally.

      "Arrest" is not usually the only, or necessarily the best, option available in situations such as this. To a great extent, however, the following suggestion depends on how clearly you can see the individual in the video (how certain you are of his identity).

      If you can clearly identify him, it may be sufficient to contact the individual in question when you see him, politely ask for a moment of his time ("May I speak with you privately for just a moment? Thanks very much."), and let him know what you have seen on videotape. You advise him in the most friendly way that this constitutes evidence of a crime should the victim elect to prosecute. However, you have a solution that should satisfy everyone. You arrange for the return of the laptop, and make it clear that he is to check out of the hotel and never return. He's very likely to see the advantage of this solution to his future.

      So long as you do not detain the individual forcibly, "take him to the security office", nor indicate by anything you say that he is not free to terminate the conversation with you and leave, and as long as the conversation is relatively brief (you can do this in 5 minutes or less), it is highly unlikely that this kind of contact would be interpreted as an "arrest", or expose you to any significant degree of liability. (You can, and should, of course, direct him to some very nearby out-of-the-way alcove or anywhere close to your initial point of contact that allows you to talk with him away from ear-shot of other people.)

      Although some of what we do in private policing does unfortunately lead down the pathway to arrests, making an arrest is NOT our primary objective, nor are we obliged by any affidavit or oath to make arrests when we happen to have knowledge of a crime (particularly a property crime). This is why private policing is so much more powerful than public policing - we have a multitude of better objectives, options and solutions available to us that the public police, frankly, do not have.

      So - if you look at this as a "problem-solving" situation instead of a "crime" situation, you can perhaps identify better approaches than simply whether to make an arrest or not.

      Excellent advice SecTrainer. In Canada, thefts under $5000 are handled summarily, i.e. no jail time. He just might have to pay a fine if found guilty. If it is a first offense, he might receive a one year conditional sentence, and if he meets those conditions for the year, the charge will be considered served. If there have been more theft charges in the past, the sentence could be a little more severe, depending on the judge.

      If you do want to involve the police, then get as much information as you can, such as victim information, laptop information, video/picture of the suspect committing the theft. Contact the police to see if they will attend if you see the suspect again. Or maybe somebody will drop by to see what you have, maybe the suspect is known to the police for other crimes being investigated. If not, then at least you and your staff are aware of the situation, and if the suspect returns, you can keep an eye on him to see if he commits another theft, deal with it the way SecTrainer suggested, or just remove him from your property if he has no reson to be there. Chances are that this is not the first time your suspect has committed thefts. If the police do come when the suspect is there, they might find out he was warrants out for his arrest. Who knows how this might play out...

      SecTrainer does have very good advice for you, and it would be the easiest way to handle the situation. Good luck!! And keep us updated!
      Last edited by HospitalSO; 02-07-2007, 12:58 PM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Llorta
        you have the right to arrest him and if he doesn ot give you your laptop back youcan take his valuable until you have 3 times the worth of your laptop
        How to place this person on your Ignore List, till he's banned:

        1. Click his user name in a post you see him post.
        2. Select "Public Profile"
        3. Select "Add this User to your Ignore List"
        4. No longer have to view its blatantly bad attempts at stupidity.
        5. Tell the idiot to go back to the Canadian cop boards.
        Some Kind of Commando Leader

        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

        Comment


        • #19
          FDG06,

          I threw this question out there because I already knew what the law was but was looking for people's intrepretation of it. Sometimes even lawyers can't. For example it is a crime to trespass on or near a dwelling place at night. Apparently the law was written to deal with peeping toms. An hotel room has been declared a dwelling place. I have always wondered if a person found wandering in a hallway in the middle of the night, with no reason for being in the hotel could be arrested for this. Lawyers have not been able to give me an answer. They've told me I would have to arrest someone, go to court & see what happens. That is why I put this question out, to see if anyone has ever been in this situation.
          I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
          Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

          Comment


          • #20
            Hotel,
            My reply wasnt meant as a dig, it in fact has some basis. Unless you happen to get a member on here who also works within your exact jurisdiction & can with 100% accuracy relate the local, county, state laws to you, each answer will be different, as each jurisdiction is different. To me, given my knowledge of applicable laws where I reside, you would NOT have the right to arrest that person at all, under the circumstances you stated!
            I am a certified state peace officer (Utah) as well as a federal leo (Federal Protective Service), in times not to long ago that I have forgotten what I've learned. In both authority levels, the general rule of thought, is..if the arrest is at all in doubt for any reason, then you dont conduct it, you find other means, get supervisory support or guidance or gather additional information/evidence that would further support your effecting such an arrest. It has to be 110% legit & a clear situation to warrant an arrest, as you see it at that time, the burden is actually farther then that for those not sworn/deputized LEO's, (such as having to be in the very presence of the crime (ie: felony/ hienous felony), while it was being committed, open & unended ability to flee, risk to public,etc), but we dont have room here for D & AP #101.
            This wasnt taught to us, because we want the bad guys to get away, it was taught to us, so that we, as peace officers would greatly lessen our risk of getting sued, disaplined or possibly drawn up on criminal charges for a false arrest or other such incident, were we might have violated someone's rights. Your job#1, as I have said over & over again, is to go home each day, this doesnt just mean, doing your job so as you dont get shot, stabbed, slashed, ran over by a vehicle or have your face beat in with a BFR, it also includes not getting yourself arrested and placed in the same paly room as those youve placed there before you.
            It wasnt that way in the past, but today, thanks to many who came before both of us & in a world full of eyewitnesses with cell phone cameras, a lawyer on every street corner wiating to fiest on any opprotunity, a media that can certainly be anti-cop and a large population that simply doesnt trust the government or anyone working under thier or a similar authority.. you should always be looking 1st at your safety & liability, secondly, on catching the bad guy. I've seen alot of good & a few bad officers get themselves in legal trouble, because they lost sight of that priority order. "There is always tomorrow" meaning bad scum, will continue to be bad scum and will eventually get themselves caught, if not today by you, then perhaps tomorrow by someone else, any LEO on this board whose worked the street for any length of time, will absolutley tell you the same thing.
            You are totally correct, laws are often very fuzzy when it comes to interpetation, all you can do, is know what laws are applicable to you, know them well enough, that you can support anything you do in a court of law & be able to articulate them to any party related to the incident. This doesnt just end with laws of detention & arrest, it covers the whole spectrum of laws, rules & regs in both your employers policy & the laws of the jurisdiction you work in, such as use of force, probable cause, search & siezure, etc.
            ...so I go back to my original response to you, which may have seemed harsh, but in fact was honestly meant to keep you out of legal trouble (you can thank me later learn & know the related laws in your area so you know it in your sleep, before you ever attempt to place another person under arrest & deprive them of thier rights, if you dont, then let somebody else arrest them..its not worth your not going home today!
            Yoda
            Sometimes there is "Justice", sometimes there is "Just Us"

            Comment


            • #21
              Nice post, but you coulda stopped right here....

              Originally posted by FDG06
              if the arrest is at all in doubt for any reason, then you dont conduct it


              ....Because that there is the Gospel Truth. You never take the chance of violating somone's rights (which is what you're doing if you're not sure your actions are legit).

              Well said.
              ~Black Caesar~
              Corbier's Commandos

              " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

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              • #22
                Well he came back tonight!

                He went to play the viodeo loto machines which usually means he was going to be here a while. I got the poilce report number from the other day & called 9-1-1. I was asked if I was detaining him. I had to explain to the police that legally I could not detain him. I said we would try to delay him if he tried to leave.

                15 minutes later, no police. I called back & emphased that I was not detaining him, he could walk out at any moment. A police car arrived with flashing lights 4 minutes later.

                He admitted taking the laptop. He said it was on the floor unattended for over an hour so he simply took it. He returned it.

                He has no criminal record, he has a job etc. The victim was contacted at his home in another province. The police suggested that the "criminal" had learnt his lesson & would probably not do something like this again. Also, if charges were pressed the guest would have to return to Montreal to testify. (That's why hotel guests make good victims - most of the time a victim will not want to return to testify). In the end the guest gets his laptop back, but no charges are laid.
                I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Well Played... Good Job!
                  ~Super Ninja Sniper~
                  Corbier's Commandos

                  Nemo me impune lacessit

                  Grammical and Spelling errors may occur form time to time. Yoov bin worned

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by HotelSecurity
                    Well he came back tonight!

                    He went to play the viodeo loto machines which usually means he was going to be here a while. I got the poilce report number from the other day & called 9-1-1. I was asked if I was detaining him. I had to explain to the police that legally I could not detain him. I said we would try to delay him if he tried to leave.

                    15 minutes later, no police. I called back & emphased that I was not detaining him, he could walk out at any moment. A police car arrived with flashing lights 4 minutes later.

                    He admitted taking the laptop. He said it was on the floor unattended for over an hour so he simply took it. He returned it.

                    He has no criminal record, he has a job etc. The victim was contacted at his home in another province. The police suggested that the "criminal" had learnt his lesson & would probably not do something like this again. Also, if charges were pressed the guest would have to return to Montreal to testify. (That's why hotel guests make good victims - most of the time a victim will not want to return to testify). In the end the guest gets his laptop back, but no charges are laid.
                    HotelSecurity, I'd love to know what was done with the laptop before it was returned to its rightful owner and how was it returned to its owner?
                    Enjoy the day,
                    Bill

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Well Bill,

                      Right now it is not with the rightful owner, it's with me! The police seized it from the suspect. I contacted the victim. He called the police giving permission to give it to me. He also decided not to press charges. Now I will use our regular courrier (Fed-Ex) that we use to return the tons of lost & found items we find. The only question is who will pay. For a regular found item it is the guest who lost it that has to pay. In this case the theft took place in the bar which is a concession of the hotel. However the guest is one of our most regular so I am hoping Management with absorb the cost & we will pay for it!
                      I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                      Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Have the hotel pay for it. Seek civil restitution against the guy. Just because the victim didn't press charges doesn't invalidate your right to seek restitution.
                        Some Kind of Commando Leader

                        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          If the hotel ever wants the guy back as a customer, they will eat the cost of sending back the laptop.

                          You did a good job on this one. Some people don't really like the observe and report type of security. But, instances like this show that it can certainly pay off.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Good job.

                            You would think with all the technolgy that you even find in a high school kid's basement, the Court system would have a secure method of video for cases just like this one so people would not have to travel

                            Originally posted by HotelSecurity
                            Also, if charges were pressed the guest would have to return to Montreal to testify. (That's why hotel guests make good victims - most of the time a victim will not want to return to testify).
                            Quote me as saying I was mis-quoted.
                            Groucho Marx

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by CorpSec
                              If the hotel ever wants the guy back as a customer, they will eat the cost of sending back the laptop.

                              You did a good job on this one. Some people don't really like the observe and report type of security. But, instances like this show that it can certainly pay off.
                              Good point. I agree. A job well done HS. I hope your employer appreciates you.
                              Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Mr. Security
                                Good point. I agree. A job well done HS. I hope your employer appreciates you.
                                Yea right! 25 years last fall with this hotel & here is what they gave me...0.

                                My boss's wife just finished 20 years with a well known jean manufactor & her company is sending her & my boss on an all expenses paid trip to Italy. My company doesn't give anything at Christmas either. (Granted the owner in not Christian & does not celebrate Christmas but still).
                                I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                                Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                                Comment

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