Pepper Spray on its way out??

[mh892]

I was sitting with a diverse group of security occupation related folks the other morning. Over coffee, one of the fellas mentioned his department (Sheriff) was contemplating discontinuing the use of chemical sprays. To my surprise, several folks stated thier own departments, companies, organizations were considering the same.

Several matters concerning problems with sprays were mentioned. I just listened. I'll give a few I remember hearing;

*Loss of pressure in container; failed to stop aggressor.
*OC not effective on persons under influence of certain drugs.
*OC caused heart failure of some persons under influence of certain drugs.
*Time elpse from decision to use OC to discharge; failed to stop knife attack in a timely mannor.
*Officer got OC'd because of wind direction.
*Appearent lack of potency as described on container.
*Grilling of Officer by defence attorney. Appearently went off the scale.
*Lack of dependability of OC in majority of cituations.
NOW, this one thru me for a loop. *One more item on the duty belt to consider as appropriete for the case at hand. Slows down the reaction process because the officer must decide if less or more force should be used for the matter at hand before drawing and deplowing OC.
AND. The winner is. *OC is for use on dogs.

I went right out and removed the OC Spray from my duty belt. (Not really, since we're required to qualify and carry it, for some reason.)

Comments were made, "OC out-Taser in".

Anyone heard OC is on the decline? How bout your department, unit, company?

[N. A. Corbier]

I've heard of the taser replacing the baton, but not OC.

[SJPA-Agency]

Well you want more choices not less. Know that a taser is a level above OC.

[SJPA-Agency]

[QUOTE=mh892]
*Loss of pressure in container; failed to stop aggressor.
*OC not effective on persons under influence of certain drugs.
*OC caused heart failure of some persons under influence of certain drugs.
*Time elpse from decision to use OC to discharge; failed to stop knife attack in a timely mannor.
*Officer got OC'd because of wind direction.
*Appearent lack of potency as described on container.
*Grilling of Officer by defence attorney. Appearently went off the scale.
*Lack of dependability of OC in majority of cituations.
NOW, this one thru me for a loop. *One more item on the duty belt to consider as appropriete for the case at hand. Slows down the reaction process because the officer must decide if less or more force should be used for the matter at hand before drawing and deplowing OC.
AND. The winner is. *OC is for use on dogs.
QUOTE]

I can make a similar list for firearms, tasers, and batons, so whats your point?
Escalation of force." Start from the lowest level of force possible, you need to have more choices. The goal is never to take life.

[Dam Guard]

Maybe soon we can start carrying CR mixed with OC or something. CR is supposed to be much stronger than CS. Maybe someone will start importing this.

http://akbnn.ru/eng.html

MPK/CR that sounds pretty nasty. MPK is similar to PAVA, I think. It may not be quite AS HOT. But if it were mixed with CR that would definitly change things. Maybe someday we can have PAVA/CR that would be really nasty I would imagine.

[OccamsRazor]

Well you want more choices not less. Know that a taser is a level above OC.

In some UOF diagrams/triangles,etc.

In some of the ones I've seen/used, TASER started after empty-hand control techniques, and moved vertically alongside hard hands, chemicals, baton, up to DF....Basically to tell officers that it could be used along with or instead of any of those options.

And then you get guys using a TASER when they shoud be drawing a firearm...Who knows?

etc.

[mh892]

I can make a similar list for firearms, tasers, and batons, so whats your point?
.[/QUOTE]

I'm happy you can make a list.

I quoted the comments I had heard at the gathering. Then I asked a simple question. O.K.?

[Dam Guard]

To try and honestly answer the question that you had asked, I will have to say no. No way is OC on the way out. At least not in the area of the country that I live in and most definitely not at the company I work for. The criticisms that were brought out are valid but there are no perfect pieces of equipment etc. And I would honestly like to see the product improved if it can be. I know that Vexor and others are supposed improvements. I don't have experience with them so I am not qualified to comment on the effectiveness of them.

[CorpSec]

As for tools on the belt, I think OC has a place. Like anything else, it has it's limitations and guys you spoke with brought them up.

I know how it effects most people and the compliance that you often get just by taking out the can. Most people that have gotten sprayed before don't volunteer for seconds. I have been sprayed during training before and if a cop pulled it out on me, I would offer to place myself in cuffs.

Since it is relatively light and doesn't take up much belt space, I don't see a lot of agencies phasing it out. The people that have died have all had underlying complications.

As for people that die from been sprayed, tased, asp'ed, or whatever, my best advice is just don't get into a physical altercation with a cop or security person in the first place and all will be fine.

[locknid]

Like I have said in another post batons are starting to be taken off the belt to be replaced by the taser, everyone still carries good ol pepper spray.

*Loss of pressure in container; failed to stop aggressor.

If you have used a certain container for awhile get a new one even if you don't think you need to. don't spray cats and dogs for the hell of it. Use it when you need it. Buy a good brand such as sabre or fox(my fav)

*OC not effective on persons under influence of certain drugs.

Even if they do not feel pain their eyes will usually swell shut and their mucus will began to flow, rather fight someone who can't see

*OC caused heart failure of some persons under influence of certain drugs.

So can tasers, many people die in police custody after putting up a fight where no less-lethal weapons were used also.

*Time elpse from decision to use OC to discharge; failed to stop knife attack in a timely mannor.

Most likely it was lack of training on the LEO/guard's part(guessing guard). Training, Training, Training. Know when you can use it, be familiar with where it is on your belt and how your OC holder works so you can pull it out fast, also make sure it is pointing the right way in the holder to ensure even faster discharge. also i would have never been that close to a possible violent perp in the first place, if in a contact fight then go for the baton.

*Officer got OC'd because of wind direction.

one word, dumbass. if it is windy out then don't use spray, thought it was common knowledge.

*Appearent lack of potency as described on container.

read reviews and ask people about certain brands before buying. Pretty much the only ones I totally trust are sabre and Fox. many of my fellow employees swear by sabre and I can tell you Fox has stopped every subject in their tracks that I have used it on, even extremely drunk people.

*Grilling of Officer by defence attorney. Appearently went off the scale.

its their job and will happen even in trials where you didn't use force. be trained, know your laws, and how to articulate and you will be fine, unless you used excessive force.

*Lack of dependability of OC in majority of cituations.

hasn't failed me yet, of course most times I use it the person isn't already in the process of punching me.

*One more item on the duty belt to consider as appropriete for the case at hand.

usually OC and baton are considered the same amount of force, so take your pick and don't think twice. I personally like options

OC isn't going anywhere anytime soon, it has its place.

[1stWatch]

I certainly don't see OC on its way out any time soon, especially not in favor of the taser. Many police departments around where I work will not authorize them since there have been several taser related deaths in recent years. Like any weapon, it has its place. It is important for all to remember, however, that no weapon or device can take the place of proper empty handed training, physical fitness, and multiple officers present at the scene.

[locknid]

Many police departments around where I work will not authorize them since there have been several taser related deaths in recent years.

ehh your dept are a bunch of cheap wussy bastards afraid of a couple lawsuits. I would like to see how many lawsuits they already get each year due to other factors, I am sure taser wouldn't add that many more.

plus taser always wins, also taser related death is a little misleading. should be stated, "deaths related to loads of cocaine and eating mcdonalds everyday caused heart attack when jackass decided to resist arrest, and would have most likely died even if a taser wasn't used."

[Dam Guard]

Yeah, cocaine and mikeyd's and weighing 400 lbs and something called exited delirium.

[1stWatch]

ehh your dept are a bunch of cheap wussy bastards afraid of a couple lawsuits. I would like to see how many lawsuits they already get each year due to other factors, I am sure taser wouldn't add that many more.

plus taser always wins, also taser related death is a little misleading. should be stated, "deaths related to loads of cocaine and eating mcdonalds everyday caused heart attack when jackass decided to resist arrest, and would have most likely died even if a taser wasn't used."

Yes sir, you are correct about that. That is why there is any media controversy over the weapon at all. That apprehensiveness isn't exactly everywhere though. For example, in north Texas, Dallas police officers are allowed to carry the weapon if properly certified, but last time I heard Farmers Branch officers are not.

[FlashLightCop]

Actually, I work for a Mall Security Provider in Mid Missouri. O.C. Spray has just been added. We do have to get certified to carry it though. Based upon the number of incidents and types of incidents that we have been having, voilence included, the mall corporate and security corporate offices agreed that we should carry pepper spray from now on out. My only question is, why did they wait so long to get us the O.C. spray?