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This is why you don't try to disarm guys with knives

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  • adam12
    replied
    Indeed.

    Originally posted by tlangsr
    Once in my training class we were doing some use of force drills and I wasn't paying attention and ended up shooting my instructor with an airsoft pistol. so you can only make it as life like as you can without risking safety.
    "I wasn't paying attention" - That's the key statement.

    As soon as real weapons are involved, everyone is on edge. Everyone is aware that the weapons are real, and that their actions will make the difference between life and death. This is how it works in the real world and how it has to work in training. If you plan on developing the psychological barrier of using fake weapons in your training, you may as well not train at all as you'll likely panic at the sudden realization that the weapon you're facing in a real-life situation is the real thing. Yet you may still make some half-hearted attempt at disarming your opponent due to a misplaced trust in your training and end up getting shot/stabbed/etc.

    I'm not trying to imply that everyone go out and start training with real knives or guns. That sort of training is for someone who has been training for years and is extremely comfortable with weapons disarming and is certainly not for everyone. You have to start slow and work your way up to full-speed, actual weapons disarming.

    Start slowly with fake weapons (but they must at least be the same color, shape and weight as the real weapon) and work your way up to full speed with fake weapons while beginning to introduce (very) slow real weapons. You will eventually get to the point where you feel comfortable dealing with genuine attacks with a real weapon at full speed, even (and especially) when the attacks are sudden and unexpected.

    Immediate, instinctive, accurate reaction to the threat is your goal.

    Leave a comment:


  • tlangsr
    replied
    Originally posted by adam12
    That's exactly why training must be made real. Real weapons, real intent, real dedication, real motivation. If the best your training program can muster are half-hearted attacks with a fake weapon then I'd start looking for another training program.
    Once in my training class we were doing some use of force drills and I wasn't paying attention and ended up shooting my instructor with an airsoft pistol. so you can only make it as life like as you can without risking safety.

    Leave a comment:


  • tlangsr
    replied
    Originally posted by outofplacevikingfan
    That's is easy to say when you have never been in that situation, training and the real thing aren't the same Just because in a safe and secure training situation you can clear holster and get three shots off before the guy clears 21 feet doesn't mean you can do that in real life.

    this is so very true.

    Leave a comment:


  • adam12
    replied
    Originally posted by outofplacevikingfan
    training and the real thing aren't the same
    That's exactly why training must be made real. Real weapons, real intent, real dedication, real motivation. If the best your training program can muster are half-hearted attacks with a fake weapon then I'd start looking for another training program.

    Leave a comment:


  • outofplacevikingfan
    replied
    Originally posted by tlangsr
    The training I recieved was atleast 21 feet. The average officer can clear his holster and place two shots to the chest and one for the "fail safe"
    That's is easy to say when you have never been in that situation, training and the real thing aren't the same Just because in a safe and secure training situation you can clear holster and get three shots off before the guy clears 21 feet doesn't mean you can do that in real life.

    Leave a comment:


  • adam12
    replied
    Fear and arrogance are thine enemy.

    Originally posted by MartinMc
    Doesn't really matter how much traing you get with disarming someone with a knife 9 times out of 10 if you get into it with someone who is carrying a knife you are still going to get cut to some degree. My instructor told me a story of an officer he knew who had a black belt in 4 different kinds of martial arts this guy was a bad ass (according to him) did a lot of training on disarming perps with knifes, well one night he got a call and he reponded to it and was confronted by a perp with a knife and he decided to disarm this guy himself well he was cut to the bone 4 times and was on the verge of passing out with the amount of blood he lost, only then did he take out his gun and shoot the guy.

    So remember this when you want to be gung ho

    Slan
    Martin
    I've seen this more times than I care to recall. The combination of fear and arrogance is at the root of these types of incidents. Fear results in panic, panic results in a loss of ability to make sound judgements, and arrogance is the underlying trait of most "martial artists". In that moment of panic, arrogance and aggression take over.

    If one has a firearm and the necessary distance to make use of it, then there is absolutely no reason to not use it. Engaging a knife-wielding opponent with your bare hands when you have a weapon that gives you a substantial advantage (distance) is pure idiocy.

    One can be a black belt in a thousand styles of martial art, and still not have the psychological capacity to handle themselves in a violent situation. It takes that "certain degree" of training to develop the psychological ability necessary. That is to say, actual experience. You need to have experience in facing an active, dedicated opponent with an actual weapon. Until you have practiced in this manner to the point where you no longer demonstrate fear of the weapon or the man wielding it, you will be completely ineffective in the application of your technique.

    In order for you to be effective against an opponent with a weapon, you must train against opponents who are wielding actual weapons, with an actual intent of causing you harm with that weapon. And of couse the amount training required for you to be at the point where you can safely (in a relative sense) participate in this sort of training is immense. Thus, we are talking about years of constant practice and training before you're anywhere near ready to handle the real deal.

    On that subject, all these "Self-Defense/Weapon Disarming" seminars and such are an excellent way to get officers killed, making them think that after a couple days of training, they're ready to start working against a weapon open-handed.

    Leave a comment:


  • tlangsr
    replied
    Originally posted by wilrobnson
    Why would I want to "string you up"? I agree. In fact, last training I had they were talking about a 30-foot rule.

    If the suspect/subject is an accomplished knife fighter, I prefer the 21-mile rule, or the "let the rookie handle it" rule.

    Disclaimer: I have taken some basic knife-fighting skills "classes", and KNOW I can do damage within 21 feet in under a second and a half, or before the "officer" role-player could clear his holster. If someone doesn't believe this is a very real threat, try it sometime.
    The training I recieved was atleast 21 feet. The average officer can clear his holster and place two shots to the chest and one for the "fail safe"

    Leave a comment:


  • MartinMc
    replied
    Originally posted by Mr. Security
    This is exactly why cops are ready to employ deadly force on a knife-wielding subject who fails to comply with verbal commands to drop the weapon.
    As should we

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr. Security
    replied
    This is exactly why cops are ready to employ deadly force on a knife-wielding subject who fails to comply with verbal commands to drop the weapon.

    Leave a comment:


  • MartinMc
    replied
    Originally posted by adam12
    Knife disarming is a touchy subject. It's certainly possible, but requires a "certain degree" of training that in my experience most people aren't willing to obtain. I'm sure most know that of which I speak.

    Remember folks, mind over matter.
    Doesn't really matter how much traing you get with disarming someone with a knife 9 times out of 10 if you get into it with someone who is carrying a knife you are still going to get cut to some degree. My instructor told me a story of an officer he knew who had a black belt in 4 different kinds of martial arts this guy was a bad ass (according to him) did a lot of training on disarming perps with knifes, well one night he got a call and he reponded to it and was confronted by a perp with a knife and he decided to disarm this guy himself well he was cut to the bone 4 times and was on the verge of passing out with the amount of blood he lost, only then did he take out his gun and shoot the guy.

    So remember this when you want to be gung ho

    Slan
    Martin

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Originally posted by Hospital Security Dude
    I think you misunderstood/misread my post, I was not saying clearing leather in 2 seconds makes me some quickdraw expert, I stated that to make the point you did.
    You were right, I was able to tease out the meaning of the statement. The way in which it was worded made me feel uneasy. I've just seen too many carvings in the past 50 years of adulthood.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

    Leave a comment:


  • Hospital Security Dude
    replied
    Originally posted by Bill Warnock
    You are missing the point! You need to visit Dennis Tueller's website. Two seconds, you may have been dead for 1 and 3/10 seconds of those two seconds. Nathan has repeatedly pointed out that in such training you are already on guard; normally, in every day life, you are not. Do not press your luck. Lady Luck does not like that.
    Enjoy the day,

    I think you misunderstood/misread my post, I was not saying clearing leather in 2 seconds makes me some quickdraw expert, I stated that to make the point you did.

    Leave a comment:


  • adam12
    replied
    A certain degree of training...

    Knife disarming is a touchy subject. It's certainly possible, but requires a "certain degree" of training that in my experience most people aren't willing to obtain. I'm sure most know that of which I speak.

    Remember folks, mind over matter.

    Leave a comment:


  • ACP01
    replied
    I don’t mean to come across as Superman, here just telling something.

    I have been attacked with a knife on three separate occasions.

    The first time it happened I was stabbed. Luckily it was in the leg.
    I still bled like a stuck pig mostly because of the struggle afterward.

    Both the other times the person was already close when things went bad but I wasn’t going to get stuck again and was able to react in time.

    I was not on duty when these happened. When you go to bad places bad things can happen.

    The point is you cannot always tell when the SWHTF but you can be prepared for when it does.

    As Bill said try to maintain the 21ft rule. You may not be able to but try.
    ALWAYS pay attention. I didn’t in the first case and paid for it.
    Mr. Murphy is alive and well. Never forget about him.

    My 2 cents.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Originally posted by Hospital Security Dude
    When I was still working armed security years ago our instructor would conduct the Tueller Drill http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/T.../How.Close.htm (Which is what everyone here is talking about) .I carried a S&W Model 10HB in a Safariland SS3 Holster and I was able to clear leather and be on target for center mass hits within 2 seconds but most of the time the "subject" would still be practically on top of me. Lession is, move out of way, find cover, and fire your weapon to stop the assault.
    You are missing the point! You need to visit Dennis Tueller's website. Two seconds, you may have been dead for 1 and 3/10 seconds of those two seconds. Nathan has repeatedly pointed out that in such training you are already on guard; normally, in every day life, you are not. Do not press your luck. Lady Luck does not like that.
    Enjoy the day,

    Leave a comment:

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