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This is why you don't try to disarm guys with knives

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  • #46
    This is exactly why cops are ready to employ deadly force on a knife-wielding subject who fails to comply with verbal commands to drop the weapon.
    Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Mr. Security
      This is exactly why cops are ready to employ deadly force on a knife-wielding subject who fails to comply with verbal commands to drop the weapon.
      As should we

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      • #48
        Originally posted by wilrobnson
        Why would I want to "string you up"? I agree. In fact, last training I had they were talking about a 30-foot rule.

        If the suspect/subject is an accomplished knife fighter, I prefer the 21-mile rule, or the "let the rookie handle it" rule.

        Disclaimer: I have taken some basic knife-fighting skills "classes", and KNOW I can do damage within 21 feet in under a second and a half, or before the "officer" role-player could clear his holster. If someone doesn't believe this is a very real threat, try it sometime.
        The training I recieved was atleast 21 feet. The average officer can clear his holster and place two shots to the chest and one for the "fail safe"
        Todd

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        • #49
          Fear and arrogance are thine enemy.

          Originally posted by MartinMc
          Doesn't really matter how much traing you get with disarming someone with a knife 9 times out of 10 if you get into it with someone who is carrying a knife you are still going to get cut to some degree. My instructor told me a story of an officer he knew who had a black belt in 4 different kinds of martial arts this guy was a bad ass (according to him) did a lot of training on disarming perps with knifes, well one night he got a call and he reponded to it and was confronted by a perp with a knife and he decided to disarm this guy himself well he was cut to the bone 4 times and was on the verge of passing out with the amount of blood he lost, only then did he take out his gun and shoot the guy.

          So remember this when you want to be gung ho

          Slan
          Martin
          I've seen this more times than I care to recall. The combination of fear and arrogance is at the root of these types of incidents. Fear results in panic, panic results in a loss of ability to make sound judgements, and arrogance is the underlying trait of most "martial artists". In that moment of panic, arrogance and aggression take over.

          If one has a firearm and the necessary distance to make use of it, then there is absolutely no reason to not use it. Engaging a knife-wielding opponent with your bare hands when you have a weapon that gives you a substantial advantage (distance) is pure idiocy.

          One can be a black belt in a thousand styles of martial art, and still not have the psychological capacity to handle themselves in a violent situation. It takes that "certain degree" of training to develop the psychological ability necessary. That is to say, actual experience. You need to have experience in facing an active, dedicated opponent with an actual weapon. Until you have practiced in this manner to the point where you no longer demonstrate fear of the weapon or the man wielding it, you will be completely ineffective in the application of your technique.

          In order for you to be effective against an opponent with a weapon, you must train against opponents who are wielding actual weapons, with an actual intent of causing you harm with that weapon. And of couse the amount training required for you to be at the point where you can safely (in a relative sense) participate in this sort of training is immense. Thus, we are talking about years of constant practice and training before you're anywhere near ready to handle the real deal.

          On that subject, all these "Self-Defense/Weapon Disarming" seminars and such are an excellent way to get officers killed, making them think that after a couple days of training, they're ready to start working against a weapon open-handed.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by tlangsr
            The training I recieved was atleast 21 feet. The average officer can clear his holster and place two shots to the chest and one for the "fail safe"
            That's is easy to say when you have never been in that situation, training and the real thing aren't the same Just because in a safe and secure training situation you can clear holster and get three shots off before the guy clears 21 feet doesn't mean you can do that in real life.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by outofplacevikingfan
              training and the real thing aren't the same
              That's exactly why training must be made real. Real weapons, real intent, real dedication, real motivation. If the best your training program can muster are half-hearted attacks with a fake weapon then I'd start looking for another training program.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by outofplacevikingfan
                That's is easy to say when you have never been in that situation, training and the real thing aren't the same Just because in a safe and secure training situation you can clear holster and get three shots off before the guy clears 21 feet doesn't mean you can do that in real life.

                this is so very true.
                Todd

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by adam12
                  That's exactly why training must be made real. Real weapons, real intent, real dedication, real motivation. If the best your training program can muster are half-hearted attacks with a fake weapon then I'd start looking for another training program.
                  Once in my training class we were doing some use of force drills and I wasn't paying attention and ended up shooting my instructor with an airsoft pistol. so you can only make it as life like as you can without risking safety.
                  Todd

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                  • #54
                    Indeed.

                    Originally posted by tlangsr
                    Once in my training class we were doing some use of force drills and I wasn't paying attention and ended up shooting my instructor with an airsoft pistol. so you can only make it as life like as you can without risking safety.
                    "I wasn't paying attention" - That's the key statement.

                    As soon as real weapons are involved, everyone is on edge. Everyone is aware that the weapons are real, and that their actions will make the difference between life and death. This is how it works in the real world and how it has to work in training. If you plan on developing the psychological barrier of using fake weapons in your training, you may as well not train at all as you'll likely panic at the sudden realization that the weapon you're facing in a real-life situation is the real thing. Yet you may still make some half-hearted attempt at disarming your opponent due to a misplaced trust in your training and end up getting shot/stabbed/etc.

                    I'm not trying to imply that everyone go out and start training with real knives or guns. That sort of training is for someone who has been training for years and is extremely comfortable with weapons disarming and is certainly not for everyone. You have to start slow and work your way up to full-speed, actual weapons disarming.

                    Start slowly with fake weapons (but they must at least be the same color, shape and weight as the real weapon) and work your way up to full speed with fake weapons while beginning to introduce (very) slow real weapons. You will eventually get to the point where you feel comfortable dealing with genuine attacks with a real weapon at full speed, even (and especially) when the attacks are sudden and unexpected.

                    Immediate, instinctive, accurate reaction to the threat is your goal.

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