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  • #31
    Lets just hope none of us ever have to pull that trigger, all of us might look at firearms as a hobby or a tool for the job, but i know that none of us want to be involved in a shooting. If you are forced to use deadly force and loose your firearm to an investigation and have to go through all the court b.s., oh well at least you went home that night and not to a pine box.

    I look at firearms is a hobby and love to punch holes in paper at the local range. I could care less if I carry a weapon on duty or not, I just feel that if you have to carry make sure it is not a spray, pray, and throw away.

    going back to what I asked about what kind of finnish you like on a firearm, I found that the two tone or stainless shows less holster rub over a period of time. on the other hand blued weapons can be re-blued. Oh by the way Bridgegate, I know a couple of guys who were over in Iraq as security contractors and love their OD green Walthers and XD's. they even have duty gear that matches their weapon. HK has tan colored firearms for the guys out there in the sand box as well.

    The guys I work with here and including myself have 870's 12ga in the patrol cars (trunk) we all went through a almost pointless 10 hour class to get certified. we do have 00 buck with it but they are loaded with bean bags. the only time one of our boom sticks were ever used is a couple years ago the bean bag was used on a pissed off rot that was running around loose through a apartment complex. the dog was going after residents and the poilce when they showed up. Animal Control did secure the dog after he was stunned with the bean bag. The Police wanted to shoot it.
    Last edited by ocp; 01-27-2007, 09:52 PM.
    SGT. WARD

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    • #32
      Special you are correct their can be limitations on possession of firearms and even type of caliber, a great example of this is the State of New York vs. New York City and the District of Colombia vs. Washington, laws are different in a city vs. in the state In New York City just try even getting a firearms permit as a private citizen you will have a very very long wait or be denied unless you can show just cause or know someone friendly, and your state permit will not do you any good in the city you must have a city permit. In some states you can buy and walk out the door with a handgun with almost no questions asked, so into a major city and you have the forms and wait period. And yes here I would imagine a D.A. would look at what caliber you used in deciding if your intent was to wound or kill before he fried you in a court room, at the very least it would play a contributing factor if he ordered your arrest and proceeded with a prosecution. Some times company policy conflicts with the laws as well i.e. I spoke to a Well's Fargo guard doing transport he told me they had company orders that if they shot anyone even if the suspect is down and not in reach of his weapon they are mandated to shoot the suspect a second time to make sure they stay down, the state law say's that's excessive use of deadly force and maybe murder. I would not want to be that security officer. But yes, laws can vary in areas.

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      • #33
        Here in Ohio you can qual with 9MM, 40cal, 357sig, or 45cal in the semi-auto.
        with the wheel guns you can qual with 38spl, or 357mag.

        I have seen guys turned away the day of the class when they brought their 380's, 44mags, or some other caliber. Next qualification I should show with a 50cal D.Eagle just to be a smart a--. the instructors at the course we go to are cool, and would get a kick out of it because they like to show off some of their toys after the class. ( don't worry I don't have a D. Eagle, I could not justify the reason to buy one. I will leave those for the super ninjas )

        One thing thats a little strange about the firearm caliber you qualify with here is if you qual with a 9mm that is the only thing you can carry. If you qual with a 40cal you can carry a 9mm or 40, and if you qual with a 45 you can carry all three.

        The only Security Officers that I have seen here qualify with wheel guns are the Brinks guys in the 38cal. I think the weapons are issued to them.

        the firearms class is a 2 day course 20 hours, and there is 2 main schools here in central Ohio who offer the class. If you want to qual with a boomstick it is a 10 hour class at the same schools, and its only for 12 guage, Remington, winchester, or mossburg pump actions. They for some reason wont let semi-auto shotguns or any other brand.

        I have only seen 2 companies here in Columbus that carry shotguns on a normal bases, and both of those are guarding government contracts. The shotguns are mounted in the patrol vehicles (SUV's)
        SGT. WARD

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        • #34
          Old school wheel gun. 38 with standard round tip ammo and two annoying speed loaders that stick out like an extra gut. I like Taurus but not in a heavy six shot club on my hip. We are now G4SW. Rumor has it we may go semi's at our expense. But we are not holding our breath.
          My views, opinions and statements are my own. They are not of my company, affiliates or coworkers.

          -Being bagger at Publix has more respect these days

          -It's just a job kid deal with it

          -The industry needs to do one of two things; stop fiddling with the thin line and go forward or go back to that way it was. A flashlight in one hand and your set of keys in the other

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Echos13
            Old school wheel gun. 38 with standard round tip ammo and two annoying speed loaders that stick out like an extra gut. I like Taurus but not in a heavy six shot club on my hip. We are now G4SW. Rumor has it we may go semi's at our expense. But we are not holding our breath.
            I just have to comment on this. Back in the 70's - ya, that's 30 years ago - I was involved in an incident where two Black Panthers, out of Chicago, robbed a gas station. As luck would have it, two officers saw the car speeding out of the station and gave chase. After about 2 miles the badguys slid their car to a stop (sideways) in the street. The officers by that time had stopped their patrol car and were facing the badguy's car. The officers were crouched behind their open doors and the badguys opened fired on the officers with a 9mm Beretta (15 shot). The officers returned fire with their Mdl 10 S&Ws. Many shots hit the badguys car, none penetrating the vehicle. Three of the officers rounds hit their windshield and none of the round nose .38 cal. slugs penetrated - they just bounced off. All the 9mm rounds (11) that hit the cruiser penetrated.

            Sorry if that was a long read - but Echos 13 took me back down memory lane.
            Retail Security Consultant / Expert Witness
            Co-Author - Effective Security Management 6th Edition

            Contributor to Retail Crime, Security and Loss Prevention: An Encyclopedic Reference

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Security Consultant
              I just have to comment on this. Back in the 70's - ya, that's 30 years ago - I was involved in an incident where two Black Panthers, out of Chicago, robbed a gas station. As luck would have it, two officers saw the car speeding out of the station and gave chase. After about 2 miles the badguys slid their car to a stop (sideways) in the street. The officers by that time had stopped their patrol car and were facing the badguy's car. The officers were crouched behind their open doors and the badguys opened fired on the officers with a 9mm Beretta (15 shot). The officers returned fire with their Mdl 10 S&Ws. Many shots hit the badguys car, none penetrating the vehicle. Three of the officers rounds hit their windshield and none of the round nose .38 cal. slugs penetrated - they just bounced off. All the 9mm rounds (11) that hit the cruiser penetrated.

              Sorry if that was a long read - but Echos 13 took me back down memory lane.
              Security Consultant, after that incident our sheriff purchased and issued Super Vel. On three consecutive Saturday mornings, demonstrations were held on the Super Vel. We doubled up on some shifts to get all the deputies and constables in the classes. Every now and then I enjoy a trip down memory lane especially now when I ask myself, how did I get out of that one alive or with no serious injuries. Thanks!
              Enjoy the day,
              Bill

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              • #37
                Bill, when that incident happened, we, along with surrounding departments tested the 9mm and switched. After that we then also carried S&W 9mm submachine guns in the trunks of our supervisors trunks. I was not part of that decision making process, but complied.

                A couple of years later I was working plain clothes and accepted a "check welfare" call. As a uniformed officer and I approached the house a 72 year old man stuck a rifle through the screen door and started shooting. It was a setup/ambush. I left LE a couple of years later.
                Retail Security Consultant / Expert Witness
                Co-Author - Effective Security Management 6th Edition

                Contributor to Retail Crime, Security and Loss Prevention: An Encyclopedic Reference

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Security Consultant
                  Bill, when that incident happened, we, along with surrounding departments tested the 9mm and switched. After that we then also carried S&W 9mm submachine guns in the trunks of our supervisors trunks. I was not part of that decision making process, but complied.

                  A couple of years later I was working plain clothes and accepted a "check welfare" call. As a uniformed officer and I approached the house a 72 year old man stuck a rifle through the screen door and started shooting. It was a setup/ambush. I left LE a couple of years later.
                  Security Consultant, the most important thing to remember is you are alive to tell the tale. Some of our fellow lawmen were not so lucky back then or through the years.
                  Enjoy the day,
                  Bill

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                  • #39
                    I call B.S !!!!

                    Marchetti, David, M- Some times company policy conflicts with the laws as well i.e. I spoke to a Well's Fargo guard doing transport he told me they had company orders that if they shot anyone even if the suspect is down and not in reach of his weapon they are mandated to shoot the suspect a second time to make sure they stay down
                    As a current armored car guard, I cannot believe that there is a company out there especially a major national company like Loomis Fargo with such orders...
                    Not only would I like to see these "orders" but I call B.S as well !

                    If there were a company operating in conflict with state law, that company would not be in business especially if they hold state/county/local contracts
                    that's why they have legal counsel...

                    We are taught to use only the amount of force needed to stop the threat. Having said that, if the suspect or perp is on the ground and is still fighting, then yeah you defend yourself until threat is over.

                    I have never heard of a prosecutor going after a security guard simply based on the caliber used by the guard unless the guard was not qualified/licensed to carry that particular caliber.

                    as for intent to wound or kill .... Thanks for the laugh.



                    Back to the topic at hand.. I carry a Glock 22 (.40) with the M3 light attached. I carry the Remington Golden Sabers. I also carry a 2 inch .357 snubby with the Winchester Black Talons. When I feel nostalgic I carry my trusty old Beretta 92FS with a current diet of Winchester Silvertips.
                    The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke.

                    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes ?

                    www.patrol4u.com


                    sigpic

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by gonzo1510
                      ...Not only would I like to see these "orders" but I call B.S as well...

                      ...I carry the Remington Golden Sabers...
                      Much like when I questioned a member who emphatically stated that Securitas has a policy which states you *must* allow a suspect to punch you three times before defending yourself.

                      How do you like those Sabers? I carry the current incarnation of Federal Hydrashoks (personal defense or something) in my carry guns, and my wife carries them interspersed with Safety Slugs in hers.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Special Investigator
                        Same goes with the caliber choice. The caliber you choose is looked at by prosacutors in WI on your "intentions" of killing or wounding a person.

                        Example: 9mm vs .45

                        If you shoot someone with a .45, you may get prosacuted because they look at a .45 as a "killing" caliber while a 9mm is looked at as a "wounding" caliber. Yea, I know it is silly but thats how it is viewed by some prosacutors in Wisconsin.
                        Well I spoke with Jefferson County, as you suggested. The District Attorney was very helpful in helping me fact check this. We can consider your statement busted. I referenced everything you wrote here (Weapon Choice), and I was told that what you speak of is in fact false. "A bullet is a bullet, regardless of caliber". If you we're carrying a "magnum" or an "elephant gun", then maybe... typically though, the intent is easily determined through other means, and they never heard of a person being prosecuted where the caliber of the weapon used was a factor in intent.
                        "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by davis002
                          Well I spoke with Jefferson County, as you suggested. The District Attorney was very helpful in helping me fact check this. We can consider your statement busted. I referenced everything you wrote here (Weapon Choice), and I was told that what you speak of is in fact false. "A bullet is a bullet, regardless of caliber". If you we're carrying a "magnum" or an "elephant gun", then maybe... typically though, the intent is easily determined through other means, and they never heard of a person being prosecuted where the caliber of the weapon used was a factor in intent.
                          Well I don't know what to say about that.

                          There was a SO who shot someone using a .45 and was prosacuted because the prosacutor said that by going armed with a .45 his intentions were to kill using that larger caliber. He was convicted. I'll try to get more details on that case.

                          Ask an attorney about this one. I've had several attorneys state that 9mm wins in court. I'll check into it more myself and get back to you on it. Meanwhile, I still stand behind my previous statements.
                          "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

                          ~~George Orwell.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Special Investigator
                            Well I don't know what to say about that.

                            There was a SO who shot someone using a .45 and was prosacuted because the prosacutor said that by going armed with a .45 his intentions were to kill using that larger caliber. He was convicted. I'll try to get more details on that case.

                            Ask an attorney about this one. I've had several attorneys state that 9mm wins in court. I'll check into it more myself and get back to you on it. Meanwhile, I still stand behind my previous statements.
                            There is obviously more to it than people are telling you. I already spoke with several counties, so i'm pretty confident that the courts and prosecutors don't view the whole 9mm vs. 45 intent issue as you describe it. Nothing personal, it just sounds like someone is feeding you bad information.
                            "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

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                            • #44
                              We have a officer who lived in Jefferson County who was arrested on a couple occasions for "going armed" as he drove to & from work assignments. In the end they did not prosacute him because the DA knew he couldn't win the case but it took several months to get his sidearm back. Until a case actually get into a court, they will still arrest SO's for going armed even though the State of Wisconsin laws and DRL regulations say SO's can go armed, even to and from work.
                              Did you ask 'em about this? I know this to be a fact in Jefferson County.

                              I'll check more into the caliber issue more and keep you informed.
                              "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

                              ~~George Orwell.

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                              • #45
                                i have been told numerous times by CCW instructors and the like that not only caliber can be used to prove u meant to kill some one. Some attorneys will look at training and classes as proof you want to kill some one. Why would you go to a class on pistol if you didnt intend on using the skills. People are afraid of guns and armed people so remember that .
                                Robert
                                Here endith the lesson

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