Why can Police and Private Security work together without Problems?

[Black Caesar]

I can say by experience and first hand knowledge, it's been going on for many years as far back as the '60's. Everytime one of Milwaukee's finest gets caught, seldom do they get charged. A lot of inocent people have been beat up, shot & killed by Milwaukee PO's over the years and every time it was rulled "justifiable" by the DA's office.

One officer shot and killed a guy because he got out of a vehicle with a cassette tape in his hand. Ruled justifiable.

Another gut was shot and killed in a simular situation except he had a cell phone in his hand. Officer thought it was a gun. Ruled justifiable.

I keep wondering how a trained LEO could mistake a cell phone or cassette tape as a firearm. I would never make that mistake.

I think I remember you saying something about being armed in your job. Are you? If you are you also should know better (maybe more than marchetti, who I think said he has always been unarmed).

If you do really think that way, hey it's ok, it'll be your funeral. When I was in the academy they took us outside at night alot to do our shoot no-shoot scenarios, with the instructors acting as the offenders, getting out of their cars (we did simulated traffic stops durng shoot/no shoot training) with all manner of objects, only some of them being guns.

The results weren't pretty. Sometimes you just can't tell till afterwards. Afterwards is to late in any firearms related incident.

[ocp]

I notice I had allot of members gave their advice about what I stated. I think you all have good advise and ideas. building a working realationship with the Columbus Police has been a goal of mine, and there is a few of their Officers that try and do the same. the issues we are running into as with other companies, is that 90% of CPD's patrol officers do not know the laws or rules that apply to Security. The PD Officers just think they know and then make their statments based on fasle information. Most Police Officers think that because you are in Security that you want to be an Police Officer, and they use this idea to push Security Officers around. I know a hand full of Security Officers that do not want to be a cop and they understand including myself that law enforcement and security are seperate. Yes we have police looking uniforms, equipment, or vehicles but this does not mean I am a wannabe. The problem P.D. Officers think that Security is a bunch of wannabe's.

I think this type of thinking from the Police would improve if all Security Officers would remember what their limits are, and not cross over that grey area, and if the Police would be informed on the rules that apply to Security. One of the problems I have noticed is that the Police think that Security is Security and that we fall under the same lable. We have been asked "What Security company do you work for" and I tell them that I don't work for a contract security company, I work "in-house" for one of the largest realastate companies in Ohio, I am a corprate employee hired to patrol most of the 64 properties here in Columbus. Then they ask if I have my F.A.B or security guard green card, and I explain that we do not follow under the rules set forth by the Ohio Department of Homeland Security rules because we are not Contract and do not fall under the class A, B, or C type Security. Plus our officers are not armed (company policy). at this point the Police Officer has a dumb look on his face not knowing what to say so he calls his supervisor, and we go through this all over again and again.

It got to the point one night that our department Chief asked the P.D. what the problem was and why after 30 years the department has been in operation that now the Police seem to want to question us. We are not breaking any laws. The Police state that there has been some problems lately and we want to make sure you guys are not causing any. My Chief being a retired Deputy of 25 years told those Police Officers that the harrasment better stop, that we are not those other companies, and that they can leave the property if there is no official reason to be here. The Police did start to leave us alone at that point but now I am hearing stories from other companies in other parts of Columbus stating they are now also going through the same thing. One of those company owners has gone to the media. Its going to get ugly.

Keep in mind that these issues are only comming from a small handfull of P.D. Officers, for the most part CPD is a good Department. We get allot of respect from most their Officers.

[Bill Warnock]

You know, I've stopped replying to your posts because (and I mean this honestly and without intentional malice, saying this is nice as I can figure) I just don't think very much of your intelligence. So I don't reply because, most of the time I'd be doing so out of dislike, rather than for the purpose of communicating, which i try to avoid.

But this post is so wrong and ignorant on so many levels I just have to reply to it. I'm asking as nicely as I can, but do you ever read what you post, because if you did I think you'd see how you make you look.

I mean really, someone who professes to be so well trained in "private policing" (laughs) should know better. I know Nathan covered most of it, but damn.... I just can't wrap my mind around the idea that you think like this.

~~~~

Non-lethal shots? WTF . You do know that Legs have these little things called Femoral Arterys right, and that if you cut that, the person will bleed to death usually before you can get them to a hospital. If you don't hit the FA, there are still the Bones, a bullet striking bone can send bone shards into a person's blood stream, eventually causing a stroke.

Add to all that the fact that intentionally shooting someone for the purpose of Maiming them violates that person's constitutional right against cruel and unusual punishment (i don't know if this applys to civilians, but it does to peace officers, who are agents of the government, so it applys to the cops in the video). Nathan already covered the practicality aspect (ie why thinking you can shoot someone in the leg in that situation is wrong headed).

That's why every single LEO anywhere in this country is trained to shoot to stop the threat in the most expeditious manor possible (which means shooting center-mass, except for police sharp-shooters who can do more because of their training), not shoot to kill. If the subject dies that's just a consequence of the incident, not the purpose of the use of Deadly Force.

I won't even touch that Super Kung Fu stuff you're talking about Marchetti, anyone with any sense knows why that's not the thing to do..

Nathan and lawson are displaying real professional sense in the matter, so I can tell they've been trained. If you haven't been trained in this stuff, probably best to save the comments, lest you make you self look bad......

You have been tactful to a fault but I think to no purpose. Please realize there are flibertigibbets in the world. Folks such as these do not deserve our time and effort in responding. If left alone, they will quietly go away.
Some of the posts should be preserved and presented to those who bestow "Darwin Awards." Some of the advise offered, if implemented would get you or the innocent killed, locked in either a prison or some asylum for the hopelessly deranged.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[T202]

I would have shot the cell phone out of his hand then put him in a sleeper hold. Then go get a coffee and donut.

[ocp]

Good Point

[ValleyOne]

They were justified in using deadly force legally

No Question. The suspect had the Intent, the Means and the Opportunity to inflict or cause deadly physcial harm.

but they were also close enough to the suspect where at least one police officer could have physically subdued the suspect, grabbed the suspects arm/ hand holding the weapon.

Maybe on CHiPs...

It's a hard call the last armed suspect I confronted I grabbed his wrist holding the weapon and that pretty much gave me control over his whole arm, applying pressure to the wrists joint caused the suspect to drop his weapon.

As a Super Ninja, hey Great Job!!! As a Private Security Officer or even a Police Officer WTF were you thinking? You trying to cashin on any life insurance policy your wife might have on you? This is basic Officer Safety, remember....Distance is your friend. Distance plus cover is your best friend...

With my free hand I secured the weapon the suspect had and called the local p.d. for a pick up telling them the suspect and weapon was secured - they still arrived with weapons drawn and I had to tell them the suspect was secured several times.

Again that's a prime example of Ninja work. How can you possibly secure a firearm with one hand, and then call the pd? Aside from one handed dialing, was this firearm a pistol? Did you eject the magazine from the weapon? Were you able to lock the slide back? ONE HANDED?

if I did have to shoot someone that close it would be non-leathal shots ( legs ) to stop walking mobility, right upper shoulder area of arm controling firearm

Even the terminology you carefully chose to express here shows the level of training you have.

1) you NEVER shoot for non lethal affects. Close your eyes and repeat to yourself center of available mass, center of available mass, center of available mass, center of available mass...

1a) You are not shooting to kill someone you are trying to defend yourself or another from the threat of deadly physical harm. You are shooting to STOP THE THREAT. If the bad guy pointing the gun at you, or another, puts down the gun after you shoot he is no longer a threat and therefore there is no need to continue shooting him. That is the difference between a justified shoot and homocide.

2) A Black Ceasar mentioned, a non lethal or maiming shot is a violation of their civil rights. Furthermore, you describe two target locations leg area and the upper portion of the arm controlling the firearm. I guess your screwed if he is standing behind a car door with his strong arm turned away from you, but still presenting the firearm.

3 fast shots he'd never know what hit him

UNLESS you were giving loud and clear verbal instruction, then I would think he would have an idea that that guy with the gun telling him to put down his gun or he will shoot him did the shooting.

Leave the Ninja crap for HALO, and get realistic training. Untill you do you are a liability to yourself and others. Better hope a decent attorney (if there is such a thing) doesn't find your comments on here after you are invovled with a shooting as I would venture to guess that even CT does not allow for 'winging' shots...

[ValleyOne]

I know a hand full of Security Officers that do not want to be a cop and they understand including myself that law enforcement and security are seperate. Yes we have police looking uniforms, equipment, or vehicles but this does not mean I am a wannabe. The problem P.D. Officers think that Security is a bunch of wannabe's.

Actually, I feel the hard part is that Security is theonly profession that mirrors, or closely resembles, that of law enforcment. My friends and I have a standing joke, if you give a s/o a pink jump suit and a badge, and shoulder patches that screwm S E C U R I T Y People will STILL think your a cop.

There are, as we all know, times in which the two job are nearly as one. That being said, the advantage that we have as s/o's is that we don't have to answer to every Tom, Dick, Harry, and Mary out there. We are accountable (for the most part) only to our clients. After all they DO pay our salaries. I feel that at times police officers resent this. It's extremely sad that police officers don't know the laws that they should, although in their defense there are a TON of laws one has to know in order to even be efficient in law enforcement. I myself, have had deputies call me at home seeking information on how to cerify a security officer's certification, all they have to do is call the state and they will be given all the info they need. They just don't know about it.

I, for one, find it extremely sad that it's the year 2007 and we still get crap from cops. They should know by now the ones that are true wannabe's and the ones that are doing the job with pride, and professionalism.

I am hearing stories from other companies in other parts of Columbus stating they are now also going through the same thing. One of those company owners has gone to the media. Its going to get ugly.

I do not have the answer, but I think when the police start to view us as a valuable tool to the collective effort of providing public safety we will always hear stories of how so and so cop harrassed so and so security officer/company.

Personally, I view my job as a security officer to handle all the BS I come across. Doing so frees up the police for the real calls they should be on, not chasing kids thru a park at night because it's closed and their bored.

Keep in mind that these issues are only comming from a small handfull of P.D. Officers, for the most part CPD is a good Department. We get allot of respect from most their Officers.

Most departments, as a whole, are a great bunchof people, but somewhere someone along the way has had the impression of security being negative. I am not saying this is false, but just remember this;

Do something right and people will soon forget. Do something wrong and the people will NEVER forget.

OCP, hold your head up, keep your chest hack and keep doing a good job. Either as an individual or a whole you and maybe your company will start to stand out as the way security should be done in Columbus.

[ocp]

Thanks Valleyone, It sounds like you know what your doing. I will keep what you wrote in mind.

[N. A. Corbier]

Leave the Ninja crap for HALO, and get realistic training. Untill you do you are a liability to yourself and others. Better hope a decent attorney (if there is such a thing) doesn't find your comments on here after you are invovled with a shooting as I would venture to guess that even CT does not allow for 'winging' shots...

I'd like you to know the following.

1. Those tactics won't work in HALO either, I know, because I routinely shoot people in the head for trying to sneak up behind me with the 12 gauge. And yet they persist...

2. Mr. Marchetti does not have a firearms permit and may not carry a firearm on duty in CT.

3. Mr. Marchetti most likely has no firearms training, which makes him they typical "can't you shoot him in the leg?" citizen.

4. The typical "can't you shoot him in the leg?" citizen is clamoring that Bush (SEIG!) is creating private police forces as his master plan to become Emperor Bush the First.

[ocp]

you guys did not take the super ninja classes for security, oh man you missed out. level 20 was the best. I'm now up to the covert spec-ops top secret airborne security guard warfare school on hand to hand Halo tactics. and next week in level 107, I learn how to throw my flashlite off hand to disable a vehicle moving at 80 MPH.

[ValleyOne]

I'd like you to know the following.

1. Those tactics won't work in HALO either, I know, because I routinely shoot people in the head for trying to sneak up behind me with the 12 gauge. And yet they persist...

Sorry wasn't trying to offend any HALO players...

2. Mr. Marchetti does not have a firearms permit and may not carry a firearm on duty in CT.

3. Mr. Marchetti most likely has no firearms training, which makes him they typical "can't you shoot him in the leg?" citizen.

4. The typical "can't you shoot him in the leg?" citizen is clamoring that Bush (SEIG!) is creating private police forces as his master plan to become Emperor Bush the First.

Interesting, this would explain the "tire iron" incident LMAO

[N. A. Corbier]

Sorry wasn't trying to offend any HALO players...


Interesting, this would explain the "tire iron" incident LMAO

You didn't. Its just fun to shoot people down when they start bunny hopping around like lunatics or try to sneak up on people. I only play Halo on the PC.

[Marchetti, David, M]

Interesting, this would explain the "tire iron" incident LMAO

That incident was like back in the mid 1980's I was 18 at the time maybe 19 years old. At least I had the nuts to confront an armed intruder to maybe save some kids life, my guess is you would dial 911 or run away if you were not armed, call for backup and wait, laughing. I detect warm bodies in uniforms here - laughing.

[Charger]

That incident was like back in the mid 1980's I was 18 at the time maybe 19 years old. At least I had the nuts to confront an armed intruder to maybe save some kids life, my guess is you would dial 911 or run away if you were not armed, call for backup and wait, laughing. I detect warm bodies in uniforms here - laughing.

Morally, sure, I would tend to agree that my first instinct would be to jump in and help someone in need. But on the other hand, training dictates that if an attacker is armed, and I'm not, I need to back down and get the ARMED people rolling.. (Whether it be armed S/Os, PD, whatever... Whoever can get there fastest)

Key point to think about: If I decide to jump in, rather than calling backup, and end up getting shot/killed... NOW who's left to protect that kid in need, since I didn't have any cover rolling? Whoops... Now the body count is 2 instead of a potential 1.

Generally speaking, "Tombstone Courage" is frowned upon in the modern world of Law Enforcement.

[Bill Warnock]

Morally, sure, I would tend to agree that my first instinct would be to jump in and help someone in need. But on the other hand, training dictates that if an attacker is armed, and I'm not, I need to back down and get the ARMED people rolling.. (Whether it be armed S/Os, PD, whatever... Whoever can get there fastest)

Key point to think about: If I decide to jump in, rather than calling backup, and end up getting shot/killed... NOW who's left to protect that kid in need, since I didn't have any cover rolling? Whoops... Now the body count is 2 instead of a potential 1.

Generally speaking, "Tombstone Courage" is frowned upon in the modern world of Law Enforcement.

Adding to that, "Tombstone Courage" is committing a sin against the Second Commandment of Security and Law Enforcement aka "The Ten Deadly Sins."
Enjoy the day,
Bill