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  • sgtnewby
    replied
    Originally posted by davis002
    If you work security in the twin cities, I think it's a requirement to know about the "Wolf Shooting". I fully understand that the twin cities news outlets are notorious for not reporting the full truth, but their own twisted version of it. I do know that the charges against Engle (aggravated assault) were eventually dropped, and according to his myspace profile, he is doing land surveying. From what I understand, he claimed he lost his balance and had an accidental discharge. That doesn't change the fact that his finger should of never been on the trigger (unless he was ready to shoot), but oh well. I have heard SO many variations of the story, and so many of the "I know what happened" stories.

    I couldn't agree more...

    It was an unfortunate situation no matter how you look at it. I did have the opportunity to work with Engle when I was still employed by Wolf and I always thought he was one of the more competant one's working for them. If I remember correctly he was working toward his 4 year degree and he was thought very highly of by his fellow officers. What a waste.
    Last edited by sgtnewby; 12-19-2006, 12:22 AM.

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  • davis002
    replied
    If you work security in the twin cities, I think it's a requirement to know about the "Wolf Shooting". I fully understand that the twin cities news outlets are notorious for not reporting the full truth, but their own twisted version of it. I do know that the charges against Engle (aggravated assault) were eventually dropped, and according to his myspace profile, he is doing land surveying. From what I understand, he claimed he lost his balance and had an accidental discharge. That doesn't change the fact that his finger should of never been on the trigger (unless he was ready to shoot), but oh well. I have heard SO many variations of the story, and so many of the "I know what happened" stories.

    Leave a comment:


  • sgtnewby
    replied
    Actually, back in the day when Spartan Protection worked the particular property (1247 St. Anthony) and I was employed by Spartan, they assigned me there with nothing but a radio. Their policy was that you could not even carry a flashlight until you had impact weapon training, which they totaly dragged their feet on providing. I watched a guy get hit in the face with a brick right in front of me. There was nothing that I could do and I didn't even work as a deterant because the residents and frequent visitors knew that most of us carried no weapons there at that time. It is a rough place.

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  • sgtnewby
    replied
    Originally posted by davis002
    I believe this is the incident you are referring to...

    Minnesota: Private guard shoots youth

    ------------------------------------------------

    "Before the shooting, Engle was questioning the teenager about a car stereo he had in his possession, police said Sunday. The boy, who lives in the apartment complex, ran from Engle and another guard, got into a car and tried to drive away, witnesses and police said."

    "Schnell said the guards had the suspect at gunpoint when the call came in, and moments later the call was changed to "shot had been fired."

    "Under state law, the same standards on the use of force apply to licensed police officers and private security guards alike, as well as to anyone making a citizen's arrest, Schnell said. "In general, it requires there be self-defense related or an imminent threat to self or others. Certainly, even in the course of a citizen's arrest, you're allowed to use reasonable force to take a person into custody. But obviously that has to be weighed against the crime for which the arrest is being sought."

    Good quote. I stopped paying attention to what the media says here in the Twin Cities because they either get it wrong or they don't report it at all. We had over 20 shots fired across our ambulance driveway where patients are unloaded, someone from WCCO and someone from Fox9 showed up while I was marking off shell casings and it still didn't make the news. The point I'm trying to make, is that I was told more about the situation and what happened (that he tried to run Engle down) then what the media chose to report. I'm not saying that nothing went wrong on Engle's side of things. We were always taught by Wolf's / On Guards's firearms instructers (who were currently employed police officers) to never have your finger on the trigger unless you know you're going to pull it. But, then again, we need to try to put ourselves in his position at that very moment. Did he feel he may get killed during this? They saw the kid inside the appartment building with the stereo in his hand. When they went to confront him, he ran to the parking lot and jumped in the driver seat. The rest is history that none of us whitnessed. It was a 14 year old boys word against an armed guards. Kudos for having the media quote.

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  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    What's Minnesota's standard? Fleeing Felon, Fleeing Capital/Forcible Felon, or Fleeing Fugitive? I know some states still have "Fleeing Felon" for the threshold of shooting to prevent escape from arrest or prison.
    ... or present an added danger to the community.
    Bill

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    What's Minnesota's standard? Fleeing Felon, Fleeing Capital/Forcible Felon, or Fleeing Fugitive? I know some states still have "Fleeing Felon" for the threshold of shooting to prevent escape from arrest or prison.

    Leave a comment:


  • davis002
    replied
    I believe this is the incident you are referring to...

    Minnesota: Private guard shoots youth

    ------------------------------------------------

    "Before the shooting, Engle was questioning the teenager about a car stereo he had in his possession, police said Sunday. The boy, who lives in the apartment complex, ran from Engle and another guard, got into a car and tried to drive away, witnesses and police said."

    "Schnell said the guards had the suspect at gunpoint when the call came in, and moments later the call was changed to "shot had been fired."

    "Under state law, the same standards on the use of force apply to licensed police officers and private security guards alike, as well as to anyone making a citizen's arrest, Schnell said. "In general, it requires there be self-defense related or an imminent threat to self or others. Certainly, even in the course of a citizen's arrest, you're allowed to use reasonable force to take a person into custody. But obviously that has to be weighed against the crime for which the arrest is being sought."
    Last edited by davis002; 12-17-2006, 08:21 PM.

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  • sgtnewby
    replied
    Just to be a little more detailed, the subject was stealing car stereos at 3 in the morning, and he was about 14 years old. He was with a 16 and 21 year old, but he was the driver. He is now paralized from the waist down.

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  • Lawson
    replied
    Originally posted by bigshotceo
    Keep in mind that if the company is named in a lawsuit their lawyers are going to be working to minimize damage to the company, not damage to the guard. In many cases, the lawyers might try to shift blame away from the company toward the guard
    You're damn straight. It happened to me and it can happen to any one of us!

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by bigshotceo
    Keep in mind that if the company is named in a lawsuit their lawyers are going to be working to minimize damage to the company, not damage to the guard. In many cases, the lawyers might try to shift blame away from the company toward the guard
    That sounds about right.

    1. Shred your use of force policy.
    2. Rewrite it so that the guard may not use force.
    3. State the guard disobeyed company policy when using force.
    4. Shift blame to guard while maintaining the guard acted against policy.

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  • bigshotceo
    replied
    Keep in mind that if the company is named in a lawsuit their lawyers are going to be working to minimize damage to the company, not damage to the guard. In many cases, the lawyers might try to shift blame away from the company toward the guard

    Leave a comment:


  • Mr. Security
    replied
    Originally posted by SecTrainer
    This doesn't make any sense to me, frankly, because it's impossible to believe that the security agency itself wouldn't be named in a lawsuit...meaning that they would also have a very large interest in the outcome of a criminal charge against the individual officer as well.
    A large security company in this area had an officer arrested for assaulting a visitor at the hospital after the individual threw a cup of water into his face. The company didn't represent the officer either.

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  • SecTrainer
    replied
    Originally posted by sgtnewby
    I worked for Wolf Protective Agency and for On Guard Inc. prior to it becoming Wolf. The thing that people need to remember is that there is extremely high liability in working armed security for a private company. You do not have the backing of city or county attourneys, and you deffinately to not get paid enough to afford a lawyer if you accidently shoot somebody that just tried to run you over with a car. Didn't happen to me, but actually did happen a couple years after I left. As far as I know, he did not recieve any assistance from the company.
    This doesn't make any sense to me, frankly, because it's impossible to believe that the security agency itself wouldn't be named in a lawsuit...meaning that they would also have a very large interest in the outcome of a criminal charge against the individual officer as well.

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    If he said it was an accident, ow. "The suspect attempted to grab my gun, I feared I would lose control over it, so I shot him to end his threat on my life," works better than "I accidently shot the guy."

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  • sgtnewby
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    Um, you don't accidently shoot someone who is trying to run you over. You either get out of the way (perferable), or you purposefully shoot the driver to end his lethal attack (trying to run you over.)

    Have you ever taken a LE or security firearms course?
    The car had been stopped at that point and a struggle had insued as the SO was attempting to take the subject at gun-point. Apparently the gun went off when the subject was trying to get it away from the SO. My fault, I should have been more detailed. And, actually, I've had a MN permit to carry for about 9 years now.

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