Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Patrol vehicles, what do you get to drive?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • We sure could've used one of those when I used to work in New England during the winters...

    Comment


    • You need one of those Tundra-friendly Rollagon things we had in Barrow and Nuiqsut.

      Comment


      • 2007 CHEVY Colorado or 2005 FORD Explorer...both fully marked. --K.
        Bitter clinger to my guns and religion....

        "When I die, I desire no better winding sheet than the Stars and Stripes, and no softer pillow than the Constitution of my country."--Andrew Jackson

        Psychological Operations: Because physical wounds heal.

        Comment


        • Well, the fuel economics are starting to hit home as it occurs to company owners that they're throwing their profits down the drain with the guzzlers.

          I saw a black patrol Prius hybrid last week, 2008, very tricked out with sharp gold markings/lettering that professional (not gaudy). Didn't have a top light bar but it had strobe LEDs, a visor bar on the passenger side and a traffic director (and spots, of course). Computer terminal and two radios. Oh, and the stereo rocked, too! I forgot to ask what gear he was carrying in back; it was in a fitted trunk with the red cross symbol, so I assumed medical. I could see a fire extinguisher mounted on the left side.

          The officer (who also wore a sharp uniform and carried not top-of-the-line but professional gear) told me it was a hoot to drive, much more agile than the CVPI he had been driving, and he was getting a lot of positive comments about it. It's the first the company has purchased so far and everyone fights to drive it.

          My thought was: "Smart patrol company!" - because more and more companies want to do business with other companies that are "green" and "have low carbon footprints". So, they're getting great PR AND great mileage out of that Prius. One way or another, the US will have to go the way of European and other countries that have been paying way-high gas prices.

          As the article below outlines, NY has been using Ford Escape hybrids as taxis for some time - a tough test to be sure...and now police departments are following their lead.


          They obviously have to do something, with CVPI's averaging 6 mph on patrol and Chargers just over 8, which is insanity in motion while a hybrid uses no gas at all while stopped or running below 25 mph, averaging 20-25 mph ON PATROL for this PD. Oh...and it's also stealthy, with no engine noise when you're on approach to a crime in progress. All that, and you save $10,000 in fuel costs per car per year? I'll take those savings as profits, thank you, and let another security company pay for an oil baron's yacht. The notion we gotta drive CVs and Suburbans is nothing but stinkin' thinkin'. It's questionable business management, to say nothing of being irresponsible to the environment.

          You can believe that every major PD in the country is looking into this issue and some are already making moves in this direction. So, while PDs cast off their guzzlers over the next 5-10 years as gas goes above $4 or maybe $5/gallon, who's going to be right there to snatch them up? Why, the security companies that most need to be concerned with preserving profits, of course!

          What's wrong with this picture?
          Last edited by SecTrainer; 03-08-2008, 10:44 AM.
          "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

          "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

          "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

          "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

          Comment


          • Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
            Well, the fuel economics are starting to hit home as it occurs to company owners that they're throwing their profits down the drain with the guzzlers.

            I saw a black patrol Prius hybrid last week, 2008, very tricked out with sharp gold markings/lettering that professional (not gaudy). Didn't have a top light bar but it had strobe LEDs, a visor bar on the passenger side and a traffic director (and spots, of course). Computer terminal and two radios. Oh, and the stereo rocked, too! I forgot to ask what gear he was carrying in back; it was in a fitted trunk with the red cross symbol, so I assumed medical. I could see a fire extinguisher mounted on the left side.

            The officer (who also wore a sharp uniform and carried not top-of-the-line but professional gear) told me it was a hoot to drive, much more agile than the CVPI he had been driving, and he was getting a lot of positive comments about it. It's the first the company has purchased so far and everyone fights to drive it.

            My thought was: "Smart patrol company!" - because more and more companies want to do business with other companies that are "green" and "have low carbon footprints". So, they're getting great PR AND great mileage out of that Prius. One way or another, the US will have to go the way of European and other countries that have been paying way-high gas prices.

            As the article below outlines, NY has been using Ford Escape hybrids as taxis for some time - a tough test to be sure...and now police departments are following their lead.


            They obviously have to do something, with CVPI's averaging 6 mph on patrol and Chargers just over 8, which is insanity in motion while a hybrid uses no gas at all while stopped or running below 25 mph, averaging 20-25 mph ON PATROL for this PD. Oh...and it's also stealthy, with no engine noise when you're on approach to a crime in progress. All that, and you save $10,000 in fuel costs per car per year? I'll take those savings as profits, thank you, and let another security company pay for an oil baron's yacht. The notion we gotta drive CVs and Suburbans is nothing but stinkin' thinkin'. It's questionable business management, to say nothing of being irresponsible to the environment.

            You can believe that every major PD in the country is looking into this issue and some are already making moves in this direction. So, while PDs cast off their guzzlers over the next 5-10 years as gas goes above $4 or maybe $5/gallon, who's going to be right there to snatch them up? Why, the security companies that most need to be concerned with preserving profits, of course!

            What's wrong with this picture?

            All the fuzzy math, and BS numbers you pulled out of thin air. And it's MPG not MPH. They are not interchangeable terms.

            There is no way to save $10,000 in fuel cost, per vehicle, per year.

            I will explain. A CVPI gets 14/21 mpg not 6 mpg. Even if we assume the worst (14 mpg) with an average of 25,000 miles per year, the CVPI will burn 1786 gallons of fuel per year. At an average cost per gallon of $3.00, the annual fuel cost is $5358.00. How can you save $10,000 from $5358.00?? I'll answer for you, you can't.

            Does it cost more than a Prius hybrid to operate? Of course. But lets use real figures to make an argument.

            The escape hybrid vs. the CVPI brings the fuel cost difference down to a negligible level.

            It's real clear that you don't like real cars like the CVPI or the time tested Chevy Suburban. They certainly do a job that no Prius could ever handle.

            It's apples and oranges comparing the two.
            ATTN. SPECOPS AND GECKO45 my secret username is CIDDECEP and I am your S2. My authorization code is Six Wun Quebec Oscar Fife. Your presence here is tactically dangerous and compromises our overall mission parameter. Cease and desist all activity on this board. Our “enemies” are deft at computer hacking and may trace you back to our primary locale. You have forced me to compromise my situation to protect your vulnerable flank. This issue will be addressed later.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
              All the fuzzy math, and BS numbers you pulled out of thin air. And it's MPG not MPH. They are not interchangeable terms.

              There is no way to save $10,000 in fuel cost, per vehicle, per year.

              I will explain. A CVPI gets 14/21 mpg not 6 mpg. Even if we assume the worst (14 mpg) with an average of 25,000 miles per year, the CVPI will burn 1786 gallons of fuel per year. At an average cost per gallon of $3.00, the annual fuel cost is $5358.00. How can you save $10,000 from $5358.00?? I'll answer for you, you can't.

              Does it cost more than a Prius hybrid to operate? Of course. But lets use real figures to make an argument.

              The escape hybrid vs. the CVPI brings the fuel cost difference down to a negligible level.

              It's real clear that you don't like real cars like the CVPI or the time tested Chevy Suburban. They certainly do a job that no Prius could ever handle.

              It's apples and oranges comparing the two.
              You obviously did not read the article I referenced. The numbers were not "pulled out of thin air" - they came from the police department that tracked them, and I have tracked the mileages of four separate security agencies myself, although it was a year ago. My numbers were a little better at 10 mpg. but security patrol is different from police patrol in a couple of important ways.

              I'm sorry, Bud, but I'll take my numbers over yours every day of the week. And, I'll take Mayor Bloomberg's business smarts over yours OR mine any day - that city is now under mandates to go "green" for both limos and taxis by 2012, with the city vehicles on a track slightly behind that. As of October, 2007 NYPD already had a number of hybrids and flex-fuel vehicles on the road, and I believe they're also testing Vectrix electric scooters (which fortunately are pretty cool-looking as well as efficient). They have a 3-wheeler also.



              Oh, and by the way, it's a formal logical error to plug YOUR erroneous numbers of 14 mpg and $3/gal (??!! - I think we've busted through that number with one station in California spotted selling gas last weekend for over $5/gal!!) into another set of figures and then criticize the final number that was based on THEIR assumptions. Try to avoid this in future.

              That's all right, though, think what you want and drive whatever you want to drive. I don't sell cars, you know - hybrid or otherwise. What I do know is that two of the four companies we consulted with made changes, although we didn't recommend hybrids at the time for several reasons, and they're more profitable. One of them landed a large client for the specific reason that their operation is "green" and the company's policy is to contract only with such vendors (you see more and more of this, incidentally).

              Two others haven't switched yet, (their fleets were newer) and today they are less profitable. However, I met with one of them just last week, and they're looking for a deal on their first hybrid (a little late - they won't get one now!), and an electric for one large industrial campus they patrol. If you can figure out why, you just got some expensive consulting for free.

              Cars like the CV, the Charger and the Suburban are absolute dinosaurs, period, end of song. And, they'll meet the same fate as gas prices rise and agency administrators/owners wise up...if they don't wise up too late and end up being stuck with them. If not...well, the Reality Express is gonna run over them like a drunk lying on the tracks.

              Your arguments remind me of Detroit thinking in the 1970s, and we know what happened there. But, let's table this discussion for 5-10 years and have another chat then, okay?

              Meanwhile, it's comforting to know that the smart business owners will have someone who will take their scrap iron off their hands. I guess indirectly you'll still be helping the switchover.
              Last edited by SecTrainer; 03-08-2008, 04:29 PM.
              "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

              "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

              "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

              "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

              Comment


              • Lots of us on this board drive Crown Vics, is anyone getting 6 MPG? That would give this car a range of 114 miles. I routinely go 350 miles on a tank.

                Something isn't right with these numbers. I smell an environmental loony pushing an agenda.

                I get over 14 MPG with my Suburban. And it doesn't do nearly as well as my CVPI.
                ATTN. SPECOPS AND GECKO45 my secret username is CIDDECEP and I am your S2. My authorization code is Six Wun Quebec Oscar Fife. Your presence here is tactically dangerous and compromises our overall mission parameter. Cease and desist all activity on this board. Our “enemies” are deft at computer hacking and may trace you back to our primary locale. You have forced me to compromise my situation to protect your vulnerable flank. This issue will be addressed later.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
                  Lots of us on this board drive Crown Vics, is anyone getting 6 MPG? That would give this car a range of 114 miles. I routinely go 350 miles on a tank.

                  Something isn't right with these numbers. I smell an environmental loony pushing an agenda.

                  I get over 14 MPG with my Suburban. And it doesn't do nearly as well as my CVPI.
                  I really don't want to get in the middle of this, but I average 12-15mpg. That is including hours of idling. With little idling, I get close to 18-20.
                  "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

                  Comment


                  • I'm getting about 300-320 miles per tank.
                    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." - Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

                    Comment


                    • Umm, 250/300 miles a tank including idling nonstop in -40 weather

                      I don't see many hybrids functioning well in the "real" winter. In fact, they test them up here, and some of the guys have had to do public assists while on patrol when these guys got stranded while testing in the middle of nowhere with no arctic gear in a snowstorm...

                      For the size of the vehicle, the Chevys and GMC's we drive are the most economical anyway. 18/20 mpg according to my hand calculated from my POV, since they're large enough that they don't require EPA stats.
                      Overmotivated and Underpaid... I'm a Security supervisors wet dream...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Alaska Security View Post
                        Umm, 250/300 miles a tank including idling nonstop in -40 weather

                        I don't see many hybrids functioning well in the "real" winter. In fact, they test them up here, and some of the guys have had to do public assists while on patrol when these guys got stranded while testing in the middle of nowhere with no arctic gear in a snowstorm...

                        For the size of the vehicle, the Chevys and GMC's we drive are the most economical anyway. 18/20 mpg according to my hand calculated from my POV, since they're large enough that they don't require EPA stats.
                        Oh, come on, boys...these numbers are bogus unless you're "patrolling" on the highway, whether you intend them to be or not. I've owned too many cars. And "miles per tank" adds nothing to this debate if we just have to look up fuel capacity of the tank and try to figure out mileage.

                        Take a look at the GMC Yukon Denali AWD mileage, not only the ratings as reported by gov't and company, but by owners who are only doing "ordinary driving":

                        http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/2008s...enali 1500 AWD

                        And these are based on a 45-55% mix of city-highway, which is hardly patrol driving. You can click on a link to customize this mix, although there's no way for you to make allowance for the added idling time.

                        No way you come close to those numbers on patrol, where you're going to get two-thirds the rated mileage at best. GMC and others would love to suggest the mileage you think you're getting, but they can't because it isn't reality (of course, their sticker numbers aren't either, as a rule).

                        The Crown Vic - ordinary driving, not idling on patrol, remember, shows 15 city, 23 highway and 18 combined with owner reporting 11.3. Patrol, you're going to get two-thirds the ratings numbers as a rule, best case. (Which jives with my research showing 10).

                        ...and now, shall we talk about the tax credit of up to $4000 per vehicle for going with hybrids?

                        As for cold weather, I checked and found that the Prius, for instance, seems to be doing just fine in Minnesota. Cold weather does cut the efficiency of all vehicles - the Prius dropping from the 40s into the mid-30s, for instance.

                        I'll just close down my end of this discussion this way because people are acting like I'm trying to take their girlfriends away from them or something, and not thinking straight, or like I made up the problem just for fun.

                        Here's the straight skinny:

                        1. Gas prices are going up and that's not going to change.

                        2. As this happens, companies that operate fleets of vehicles will break out into two types: Those that see the handwriting on the wall and those that don't.

                        3. In skinny-margin industries such as security, especially, running a fleet of fuel-inefficient vehicles will not make good business sense...if it makes sense even now, which I do not believe it does. The research that large taxi companies and other commercial fleet owners have commissioned, and which you might just as well understand was performed by automotive experts, has shown this repeatedly.

                        4. There is no other compelling reason to drive inefficient vehicles that justifies the additional operating costs except certain highly specific circumstances, few if any of which apply to most security patrol companies in the continental US.

                        5. Well within our lifetimes, we will see large-scale changeovers among all commercial fleet owners to reflect realities #1-4. As that happens, and as the public also switches over, the resale value of efficient vehicles will rise or hold steady, even as owners are allowed to depreciate them on their books, just as you can depreciate a building even though its market value is actually rising. This will amount to hidden added equity, over and above the "lost" profits captured by the fuel efficiency.

                        Meanwhile the inefficient vehicles will depreciate in the market even more rapidly than they do now. (This phenomenon was clearly seen during the fuel crisis of the 1970s.) Since you can't depreciate equipment based on a sinking market value, you will not be able to expense out this loss of asset value. The best you can do is show a loss when the asset is finally dumped.

                        6. Government tax rebates/subsidies/allowances can be predicted to rise from the current maximum of $4000 as it becomes more urgent to encourage people and companies to purchase efficient vehicles. There may even be a tax surcharge imposed on the least efficient vehicles.

                        7. The technology will improve further, and the efficiency gap will widen between the "alternative" vehicles and the Detroit scrap iron. Or, Detroit will stop producing it altogether.

                        8. More and more potential clients are and will be developing vendor "green" standards and simply will not do business with vendors that exhibit indifference to fuel/energy consumption, carbon footprint and other aspects of their operations.

                        9. The time to recognize socioeconomic tsunamis such as the one that is already underway in this aspect of business operations is before the biggest wave hits, not when everyone else is being swept back to sea along with you. That the tsunami is already beginning is clear from professional publications like "Business Fleet" magazine, where a survey of 475 commercial fleet owners showed fuel efficiency topping their list of concerns:

                        "Of the surveyed commercial fleets, the overwhelming majority voiced comments similar to those by Charles Stevenson, CAFM, manager of fleet operations for Aqua Pennsylvania in Springfield, Pa. “The biggest change to our fleet for 2008 is adding more vehicles with better mpg,” said Stevenson.

                        Another fleet looking to make the same change to its selector is USG. “We are changing the selector to smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles,” said Maria Williams, fleet operations supervisor for USG in Chicago. Another company making similar deliberations is Henkel Corp.

                        “We will be making changes in our 2008 buy to include new models that provide improved fuel economy,” said Vinnie Fugaro, purchasing agent for Henkel Corp. in Rocky Hill, Conn.

                        One fleet manager after another responding to the survey cited increased scrutiny given to more fuel-efficient vehicles to their 2008 selectors. Another example is Bausch & Lomb. “My strategy is to deploy additional fuel economy-type models, such as hybrids and smaller, more fuel-efficient sedans,” said Mark Dennis, fleet operations specialist for Bausch & Lomb in Rochester, N.Y. The sentiments of responding commercial fleet managers were best summarized by Debbie Mize, fleet/relocations manager for Hallmark Cards in Kansas City, Mo. “Fuel economy is playing an even larger role than normal,” said Mize. “Fuel has always been important, but even more so now that prices are so high.”


                        Some of these fleets are trucks, some are cars--it doesn't make any difference. Fuel economy is already dominating the landscape and smart companies will not throw their profits down the gasoline fill tube. I know many of us have little or no business management education or background, but you don't have to be Donald Trump to figure this one out. (The easiest way to increase profits in any company is to cut unnecessary expenses, and those extra profits are "free" because you already paid for them so you have no marginal cost on those extra dollars.)

                        As for what you care to drive, it doesn't matter to me! Drive whatever blows your skirt up. I wish it were still 1965 and I was filling up my cherry-red 57 Chevy's tank for $5.00 too. Back then, we put miles on cars like the gas was free. (And no, I wasn't smart enough to keep that car! Worse, I later bought a 68 Firebird 400 convertible w/4-speed Muncie, red w/black top that I changed over to white, and I didn't keep that, either. If only....)
                        Last edited by SecTrainer; 03-09-2008, 11:39 AM.
                        "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                        "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                        "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                        "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                        Comment


                        • Fleets of the future won't be driving Prius-es or Escapes. What they will be driving is CVPI, Impala, Expedition, and Tahoe Hybrids. Chevy is already coming out with Tahoe and Impala hybrids, to complement the FlexFuel models.

                          The fleet manufacturers have already noticed. The Prius is an example of a vehicle for people who have to justify buying a vehicle to their friends because they can't go everywhere on BART or a bike.

                          The Escape Hybrid seems to be marketed towards young urban professionals who don't have to justify to their friends that they own a Bu****ler Oil Dependency Device, at least.

                          But, look over at Chevy. Impala Hybrids and Tahoe Hybrids are in the pipe, as noted here. Who drives Impalas and Tahoes? What does a lot of add-on equipment fit? You can't find a cage for a Ford Escape Hybrid, but I bet you that you will be able to find one for a Tahoe hybrid.

                          I fully expect some form of Marauder Platform hybrid simply to keep up with the SEO version Chevy Hybrids.
                          Some Kind of Commando Leader

                          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Alaska Security View Post
                            Umm, 250/300 miles a tank including idling nonstop in -40 weather

                            I don't see many hybrids functioning well in the "real" winter. In fact, they test them up here, and some of the guys have had to do public assists while on patrol when these guys got stranded while testing in the middle of nowhere with no arctic gear in a snowstorm...

                            For the size of the vehicle, the Chevys and GMC's we drive are the most economical anyway. 18/20 mpg according to my hand calculated from my POV, since they're large enough that they don't require EPA stats.
                            Our transit security in Montreal just started using these: www.policecanada.policecanada.org/Transit/STM008
                            and we get real winters here. (35cm of snow last night).
                            I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                            Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                            Comment


                            • I patrol 250-300 miles a night when I am on patrol.

                              The truck is idling while I am stationary. For the entire 12 hours I am on duty, the truck is on.

                              I don't even nudge half-tank, and I fill the truck at the start of the shift.

                              Your mileage may vary, but Diesel's are more economical. Why's a VW jetta with a diesel get 50 MPG?

                              Why's a 6.6 liter diesel truck get 18 city and 20 highway when it's 6 liter counterpart gets maybe 16 highway, and its 14-10 mpg for it's 8.1 liter counterpart, both of which are gas?

                              600 miles to a 32 gallon tank is around 18.5 MPG. That makes sense considering the amount of idling that is done. I get 22 highway with my truck which is the same thing, just a shortbed instead of a longbed crewcab diesel. So I can account to these numbers.

                              Now, let's look at hybrids, shall we?

                              Hybrids use a battery. On average, at 0 celsius these batteries are at 75% of their normal capacity, and capability of charging. The lower you go the worse it gets. Hit -40 celsius and it's DEAD. That means that wonderful fuel economy you are expecting aint going to work.

                              I see VERY FEW hybrids up here. Every hybrid I see never has snow on it. Know what this tells me? In order for a hybrid to have a chance to function in any low temperature environment, it requires garaging. As security, you don't always have that option.

                              Not to mention the fact that just to keep the passenger compartment warm the engine is going to have to run all the time because it will either need it for coolant circulation, or to power up the frozen batteries because it's got an electric heater.

                              Throw in the service life of a hybrid on top of that versus the service life of one of our patrol trucks...

                              And for grins, I'd LOVE to see you follow me in my area of responsibility in a hybrid. Hope you have a shovel in that thing because you're going to be a digging fool
                              Overmotivated and Underpaid... I'm a Security supervisors wet dream...

                              Comment


                              • Our Patrol Division drives CVPI's that have outlived thier usefulness in the public sector. Normally ours have between 90-110,000 miles when we get them, and a list of repairs to be done. Front ends are ALWAYS bad. We're building the business case to Corporate to buy us some brand new fleet Impalas or Colorados (yeah, we're not holding our breath either )
                                "Lawyers, Guns and Money"

                                "Don't pick a fight with an old man. If he's too old to fight, he'll just kill you."

                                Comment

                                Leaderboard

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X