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  • In Australia we have both Ford and Holden (GMC Equivalent) sedans for general use. These are family sedans (V6's) that are extremely modified (duh). General patrols are conducted in Pickup Trucks with twin cabs and caged, covered transport areas for those naughty people) and Forensics run from station wagons - fitted out for their needs. Some country police use 4wd units designed for bush work and for dangerous conditions including floods and then we have the pursuit vehicles which are all Fords and Holdens but V8 engines.

    A few companies like Mercedes, BMW, Mini Cooper, Mitsubishi, Volvo and Volkswagon have all given freebies for 12 months complete with markings, for the police to use as general use duties vehicles (court attendance, commander transport, witness transport) to display to the public and to support the community policing program and with some car hoons, these hotted up cars has been a talking point with the local police.

    Security vehicles (unless your own) are like rental cars - they can be thrashed and abused by different staff and it is not uncommon to see them treated worse than $50.00 paddock basher on a farm. I would never purchase an ex rental and when I sold my 4 patrol cars, the people buying them were the 4 of the 6 who ever drove them so they knew what they were buying from me.

    Things such as run flat tyres, rear passenger shields, more lights than Yankee Stadium and other dead money - just that - dead money. For what is spent on stupid upgrades, 2 vehicles could have been purchased.
    "Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer" Sun Tzu

    Comment


    • Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
      You'll never know until you shake off your prejudices and just look at the cold, hard facts.
      It would seem your prejudice would be for American cars. I'm not sure where you’re from, but in America, driving American vehicles is a business plus all by itself. Not to mention keeping the money in our country and not supporting a foreign government.

      I'm also not sure why you are so obsessed with the pursuit aspects of the CVPI, or why you think security vs. police patrols are so dissimilar? When I patrol, I’m looking for the same things they are, just on private property.

      My company also does prisoner transport, so the added room is really a necessity.

      All the vehicles you mentioned require extensive modification in order to do a so so job of meeting the CVPI’s factory installed features.

      I can order a CVPI from the factory, ready to hit the road. None of those other vehicles can do the same.

      There is also the silliness factor in driving little foreign cars that have security plastered all over them. It doesn’t do much to instill confidence in you clients when you roll up in a civic.
      ATTN. SPECOPS AND GECKO45 my secret username is CIDDECEP and I am your S2. My authorization code is Six Wun Quebec Oscar Fife. Your presence here is tactically dangerous and compromises our overall mission parameter. Cease and desist all activity on this board. Our “enemies” are deft at computer hacking and may trace you back to our primary locale. You have forced me to compromise my situation to protect your vulnerable flank. This issue will be addressed later.

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      • Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
        There is also the silliness factor in driving little foreign cars that have security plastered all over them. It doesn’t do much to instill confidence in you clients when you roll up in a civic.
        That alone is a good point. To go out on a limb here, my company uses Hyundais. (Both sedans and SUVs) Personally, I think the sedans look kinda goofy. The SUVs at least have a "mean" look to them, thanks in part to the new LED lightbars and pushbumpers.

        The sedans are not considered compacts, but GOSH they're cramped. There's no room for equipment, so the stereo had to be removed to make room for the light controls & radio. Same story in the SUVs as well. (I'm only 5'11", but *I* hit my head on the ceiling on a regular basis... I can't imagine how our taller S/Os feel) Sitting in the seat wearing full duty gear is a serious PAIN in both vehicles.

        So far the drivetrains have proven to be more reliable than in the old Ford Tauruses they replaced, but on the other hand the suspension systems have taken a heck of a beating by comparison and don't seem to be holding up as well. The mileage is only marginally better than the older cars. So little in fact it's basically a moot argument. The electrical systems BARELY handle the equipment load. (In fact, one of the sedans had a catastrophic electrical failure that I won't get into here.. lol) Only time will tell how they truly compare in reliability & overall cost.

        Hyundai hasn't exactly been a real contender in the auto market in the past, but most sources will tell you their reliability & quality has been on par with the other so-called "quality" (read Asian) makers for the past 7-10 years. So if that's true then that tells you how a Honda, Toyota or Mitsu would deal with the same type of job.

        In the end, is the (marginal) difference in reliability & mpg REALLY worth trading the comfort & spaciousness of the normal patrol car? In the end it's up to each individual company to decide, but if it were me, I'd say no.

        //rant off.
        Corbier's Commandos - "Stickin it to the ninjas!"
        Originally posted by ValleyOne
        BANG, next thing you know Bob's your Uncle and this Sgt is seemingly out on his a$$.
        Shoulda called in sick.
        Be safe!

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
          It would seem your prejudice would be for American cars. I'm not sure where you’re from, but in America, driving American vehicles is a business plus all by itself. Not to mention keeping the money in our country and not supporting a foreign government.
          You do realize that a lot of foreign cars are built in the US by US workers. Sold from US owned dealerships. Repaired by US mechanics. How does buying a foreign car support a foreign GOVERNMENT? I do not know of any governments that own auto building companies.

          Please sit down, I don't want you to fall & hurt yourself when you read the following: The mom & apple pie company "Holiday Inn" was bought by a UK company many years ago.
          I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
          Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

          Comment


          • Too true. Foreign cars are built in the US, and domestic cars are built elsewhere... State of the world these days.

            For example, (former GM employee here), many of GMs engines are made in mexico, and many other parts are made in Canada. They then get shipped to the US for final assembly. Does that mean it's still made in the US of A?
            Corbier's Commandos - "Stickin it to the ninjas!"
            Originally posted by ValleyOne
            BANG, next thing you know Bob's your Uncle and this Sgt is seemingly out on his a$$.
            Shoulda called in sick.
            Be safe!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Charger View Post
              Too true. Foreign cars are built in the US, and domestic cars are built elsewhere... State of the world these days.

              For example, (former GM employee here), many of GMs engines are made in mexico, and many other parts are made in Canada. They then get shipped to the US for final assembly. Does that mean it's still made in the US of A?
              Agreed, take for example Steelcase furniture, they state they are "assempled in the US" yet all the parts are made overseas.
              SecurityProfessional is Back up and running!

              Comment


              • Well, my Dodge Charger came in today. It is in possession of the Fleet Mgr., for outfitting with graphics and lights to include the rhino pushbar. In a previous posting, the Charger was for another Officer, so I thought. It was a surprise apparently. I took it for a test ride today. All I can say is WOW! I will take possession of the vehicle in about 2 weeks when all of the bells and whistles have been installed. My 08' Crown Victoria will be re-issued out to another. Two more will be arriving shortly according to the Fleet Mgr. I will keep you all informed once I have taken possession of it.

                Be Safe,

                Hank
                " We are determined that before the sun sets on this terrible struggle, our flag will be recognized throughout the world as a symbol of freedom on one hand and of overwhelming force on the other" - General George C. Marshall

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
                  It would seem your prejudice would be for American cars. I'm not sure where you’re from, but in America, driving American vehicles is a business plus all by itself. Not to mention keeping the money in our country and not supporting a foreign government.

                  I'm also not sure why you are so obsessed with the pursuit aspects of the CVPI, or why you think security vs. police patrols are so dissimilar? When I patrol, I’m looking for the same things they are, just on private property.

                  My company also does prisoner transport, so the added room is really a necessity.

                  All the vehicles you mentioned require extensive modification in order to do a so so job of meeting the CVPI’s factory installed features.

                  I can order a CVPI from the factory, ready to hit the road. None of those other vehicles can do the same.

                  There is also the silliness factor in driving little foreign cars that have security plastered all over them. It doesn’t do much to instill confidence in you clients when you roll up in a civic.
                  You can no longer "support the American economy" by buying "American" cars, nor do you harm the American economy by buying "foreign" cars. Today, these terms have no meaning as most cars are comprised of globally-produced parts and could be assembled anywhere.

                  I doubt seriously that there is sufficient "business benefit" from "driving American" to compensate you for driving anything other than vehicles that offers the real features needed for security patrol at the lowest operating cost. I doubt anyone is saying, "Oh, Heavens! We can't hire them - they drive Volvos!", or "Let's hire them - they drive Fords!". Puh-leeze. If anything, I'm more impressed with a company that has obviously considered operating costs in their fleet because I will assume that's how they run other aspects of their business as well.

                  It seems that you simply cannot make your case unless you MISSTATE what I said, i.e., that you have a choice between driving a CVPI or a Charger, or else driving a Civic, or some other "silly little foreign car" that has no room, etc. I'm surprised you didn't use a VW Beetle for your example.

                  This kind of deliberate misstatement of my position does you NO credit as a debater and brings nothing to the table in the way of solid discussion and enlightenment about our topic. So, I will ask you to please respond to what I do say, rather than misstating it. For instance, among the cars I mentioned were Volvo as well as Chevy Malibu and other examples of vehicles that are anything but "silly", and that should be evaluated for interior and trunk space, performance characteristics, and total cost of ownership, rather than simply accepting the CVPI or any other vehicle at face value.

                  It's very hard for me to see how any business person can make a cogent argument against this simple proposition: Even if the CVPI is truly the "best" vehicle, you'll never know that it is unless you do some serious head-to-head comparisons of both features that are important to security patrol (not police patrol) and the TCO (total cost of ownership) against other alternatives. When you do this, you don't have to get very far into the process before it becomes pretty clear that neither the CVPI nor the Charger will make the short list of security patrol vehicles in terms of "typical" patrol usage. There might be a few exceptional patrol venues that would make these cars a better choice, but not typically.

                  As the discussion deteriorates, I find myself thinking - hey, it's your money. Knock yourself out. I'd rather pay officers more than to pay a TCO premium for what (if we're all honest here) amounts to feeding the "we-gotta-look-like-cops" fantasy. I have no doubt at all that if the cops in this country drove Volvos, there would be no one on the board clamoring to drive Crown Vics and all the buzz would be about the "cool S60", or some other model that cops were driving. (Incidentally, a PD that I know of got a Volvo not long ago and officers squabble over who GETS to drive it...not who HAS to drive it.)

                  ...and check out this link to Aspen PD, which uses Volvo XC90s for most of its fleet, and before that drove Saabs: http://www.aspenpitkin.com/depts/53/...ons_patrol.cfm Now, THAT is one sharp-looking patrol unit. You honestly think I'd lose "business value" with my officers driving around in those? NOT!

                  In fact, if you do a little checking around, you'll see that even U.S. PDs drive lots of makes that you might not realize, and they make these decisions because in a given circumstance a particular vehicle makes the most sense. That is what I am suggesting security companies should do as well.

                  What makes this argument all the more silly is that PDs everywhere are already purchasing hybrids, NEVs etc. in order to evaluate their usefulness for PATROL purposes. All you have to do is Google police purchases hybrid or police purchases NEV, etc. to scope out the news articles on this subject. If they think they need to do this kind of evaluation, well....
                  Last edited by SecTrainer; 12-14-2007, 09:41 AM.
                  "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                  "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                  "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                  "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                  Comment


                  • I do know that a few years ago the CHP got a few Volvos for a year for testing. I don't remember witch model. They stayed with the CVPIs. Just an observation.
                    "Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists. " Author Unknown

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Andy Taylor View Post
                      I do know that a few years ago the CHP got a few Volvos for a year for testing. I don't remember witch model. They stayed with the CVPIs. Just an observation.
                      As I understand it, this choice wasn't due to performance issues. CHP wanted Volvo sedans and would have looked at Volvo's bid very seriously except that in that year Volvo was phasing out their sedans and only had wagons to offer.

                      And, the CVPI was actually not their first choice, either, but there was something happening with the Caprice at the time - might have been production problems or changes to the Caprice. I'm not sure what.

                      Now, of course, the story is different and Volvo is again offering a number of sedans, so we really don't know what the CHP would do in 2008 if they were making the choice now.

                      Incidentally, folks, Volvo is owned by Ford, so you don't have to worry about "harming the American economy" by looking at an XC70 or something similar...Ford gets the dough anyway. All you would have to consider in a Volvo-Ford comparison is the cars themselves - features and total cost of ownership. In fact, there's a whole tangled web of incestuous "partnership" and "ownership" relationships between "domestic" and "foreign" car companies and/or their assembly plants, the engines or other subassemblies they use, etc., if you care to check it out. Hail the global economy.

                      The Ford 500, Ford Fusion, Mercury Montego and a couple other Ford/Merc models did get high marks for quality this year from JD Powers, so I would certainly look at the 500, the Montego, and the midsize Fusion, which comes in a 4-door. Also, in the larger car department, Pontiac Grand Prix might be worth evaluating, as it also ranks high in quality. Many other issues, of course, but you gotta start your list somewhere. Other possibilities include Mitsubishi Galant, the Forrester, Honda CR-V, Honda Accord, Nissan XTerra, most any of the Volvos - sedans or wagons - except the luxury models, and Chevy Malibu. I don't think any of VWs models have done well. If a truck suits your purpose, my short list includes the Honda Ridgeline, the Honda Ridgeline, and the Honda Ridgeline. In a van, I'd look at either Honda Odyssey or the Kia Sedona. The Honda Element also has some very intriguing design features for specialty uses (e.g., interior is completely washable, enormous interior space, can be configured to carry a stretcher as a medical aid vehicle, etc.). You just gotta dig in and check 'em out.

                      One way I have done this without being bugged by sales people and in order to have time for a "car magazine" type test, once you're down to 3 or 4 possibles, is to rent each one on your list for a weekend and take it out for a good workout. If you're not a big guy yourself, enlist the company of an enormous friend and see if he (or she - I don't wish to be sexist )can sit in it for long periods of time. Load everything imaginable into it and see if you can access things quickly. Take it out on the highway, and on some back roads. If you fill it up before returning it, you can check the gas mileage yourself. Read the owner's manual, too.

                      (You can have some fun with this, too. Rent the car with a baby seat, and before you take it back to the rental agency throw some Cheerios into the baby seat along with a couple of empty beer cans and cigar butts. That'll screw with their minds!)
                      Last edited by SecTrainer; 12-14-2007, 11:19 AM.
                      "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                      "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                      "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                      "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                      Comment


                      • I'm not sure about the Minneapolis area, but in the SE Wisconsin market, if you're not driving "American," the locals simply won't like you. Its part of the pro-union mentality of the area. Is it bad? Of course not, there's a freaking Chrysler plant in Kenosha. The local UAW hall was massive.

                        Does this mean people care all over America? No, it doesn't. But in some markets, you had best be driving what people consider to be appropriate. Hell, the Sheriff's Department only switched to Ford when the AMC/Jeep plant was retooled to Chrysler. They drove Jeeps.
                        Some Kind of Commando Leader

                        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                        Comment


                        • I agree with SecTrainer that the vehicle issued for security needs depends on the ACTUAL needs of the company (which does basically eliminate the need for a vehicle needed for pursuits and high speeds. If your need includes the pursuit or high speed qualities of a veh, please detail that need, and the lawfulness of doing it in your area.)

                          Now to say you need the qualities of a police pursuit package because it has a better suspension, braking, cooling, transmission, ect, could have merits for you specific applications, but for general security use, the extra costs to buy, maintain, repair, ect, takes away profit from the company, and I'll be the first one to admit that I'd rather have any extra money in my pocket (as in a pay raise).

                          As long as a veh is maintained well, (like frequent oil changes, tire pressure checked, maintaining all fluids, belts and hoses) most cars and trucks these days would do a fine job for average security patrol work.

                          You could have the same arguments here about which motocycles are best for security work (harley-davidson, kawasaki, BMW, ect), or what kind of bicycles are best, or which flash lights, guns, ammo, underwear, are the best, or, well maybe I've gone a little too far here.

                          But my point is, if you can show you REALLY need it for your specific application, get that totally tricked out police cruiser, in Ferrari RED, and it's all good.

                          But, for everyday security needs, a good quality, well maintained vehicle, that has enough room in it for the passengers it will carry, and any equipment needed for you likely use, designed for the area your in (possibly a 4X4 in dirt terrain, ect), and your needs for working have been met, at the most reasonable over all costs to your company.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
                            ... If a truck suits your purpose, my short list includes the Honda Ridgeline, the Honda Ridgeline, and the Honda Ridgeline. ...
                            No offense SecTrainer, as you make some good points, and for the most part I agree with you that agencies should be looking at what vehicle suits their needs the most. But the Ridgeline is NOT a truck! I've seen far too many that people tried to take off-roading and ended up having to get towed out by their domestic counterparts due to suspension failure & various other things that weren't made to handle the abuse that a normal truck takes. We patrol quite a few sites that are, simply put, hell on our vehicles. The poor little Hyundais get flat tires almost all the time from driving through them, and the owner has been looking into getting a few trucks for the Officers who have to go into those areas. He is looking based on our needs, and the Ridgeline is NOT on his list.

                            Also, while the Odyssey is a good vehicle in it's own right, if you want a minivan you simply HAVE to go with a Dodge/Chrysler... They invented the darn things, and have been at the top of that market segment ever since. Honda & Toyota are the only ones who truly compete, and they've been lagging 2-3 years behind for as long as I can remember. While Dodge has had it's share of unreliability & other problems in the past, the minivan is one thing they've always done right.

                            Anyhow, my Mopar fanboyism is showing now, so I'll step off my soapbox.
                            Corbier's Commandos - "Stickin it to the ninjas!"
                            Originally posted by ValleyOne
                            BANG, next thing you know Bob's your Uncle and this Sgt is seemingly out on his a$$.
                            Shoulda called in sick.
                            Be safe!

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Charger View Post
                              No offense SecTrainer, as you make some good points, and for the most part I agree with you that agencies should be looking at what vehicle suits their needs the most. But the Ridgeline is NOT a truck! I've seen far too many that people tried to take off-roading and ended up having to get towed out by their domestic counterparts due to suspension failure & various other things that weren't made to handle the abuse that a normal truck takes. We patrol quite a few sites that are, simply put, hell on our vehicles. The poor little Hyundais get flat tires almost all the time from driving through them, and the owner has been looking into getting a few trucks for the Officers who have to go into those areas. He is looking based on our needs, and the Ridgeline is NOT on his list.

                              Also, while the Odyssey is a good vehicle in it's own right, if you want a minivan you simply HAVE to go with a Dodge/Chrysler... They invented the darn things, and have been at the top of that market segment ever since. Honda & Toyota are the only ones who truly compete, and they've been lagging 2-3 years behind for as long as I can remember. While Dodge has had it's share of unreliability & other problems in the past, the minivan is one thing they've always done right.

                              Anyhow, my Mopar fanboyism is showing now, so I'll step off my soapbox.
                              Wow, "no offense" is kind, but "make some good points" is a little extreme.

                              Anyone who lives in JD Powers books is buying the highest marketing dollar. All anyone has to do is go to the repair shop ONCE to figure out all the Toyota and Honda cost savings are imaginary at best. You are looking at double the repair costs, with limited shops to bargain with and delayed lead times (and you BETTER smile when you are getting ripped off!).

                              For someone who spends their own money, Japs are not even a feasible consideration. Toyota is getting billion dollar recalls from China, the same as the American car parts on the line right beside them. If you want Japanese marketeers and JD Powers to do your thinking for you, ask them to guarantee parts replacement costs and see how far that will get you.

                              It hard to believe ANYONE would even suggest such an alternative, but there are people getting tossed off turnip trucks every day off every corner it seems: except some are on a perpetual 'bumpy' turnip truck on a spiraling highway to hell.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ddog View Post
                                All anyone has to do is go to the repair shop ONCE to figure out all the Toyota and Honda cost savings are imaginary at best. You are looking at double the repair costs, with limited shops to bargain with and delayed lead times (and you BETTER smile when you are getting ripped off!).
                                That's not my experience at all. Shop rates are about the same, and I don't see the inside of my Honda shop very often like I do for the Ford, either. I get a free loaner from Honda, and the only time I have EVER waited for parts was when I ordered a custom hitch, which took a few days to arrive from the regional parts depot and was installed the same day. The Oldsmobile has been very good on repairs, I must admit, other than one episode where it coughed up a computer chip that ran into a goodly sum.

                                I've owned two vehicles that gave me 300K and 200K miles plus, respectively - a Toyota pickup and a Honda Civic. I have an Element now with 65K and it's only seen the shop for scheduled maintenance, ever. It's been all over hell and back and hasn't got a squeak or a rattle. I'm gonna sh1t-can the Ford at 110K, if it even makes it that far, which I seriously doubt. When I do, it won't be worth sh1t, either. However, since it drinks gas like a hog, I don't drive it much so it will take awhile to make the last miles. The Olds has 57K, so we'll see how it goes. The wife drives it and just putts around town, so the poor gas mileage isn't a big issue there. The Honda doesn't rob my pocketbook, and when I move into the next one, it will be worth much more than many other similar vehicles I could have bought - that's the plain and well-documented history of these cars.

                                See, that's what I mean by TOTAL cost of ownership. It's not shop rates, but how often you're in the shop. It's not shop rates, but operating costs. It's not what you pay new, but what you pay new MINUS what you get out at the other end. Talking about shop rates, even if they were substantially different, which they're not, is one teeny part of the picture.

                                ...and I think JD Powers is a pretty respected source, along with Consumer Reports and information from Vehix, etc. Of course, if you run a testing agency and publish the results yourself, I'd sure be happy to look at them. Otherwise, I'll stick with the folks who do. They just might know something you don't.

                                It hard to believe ANYONE would even suggest such an alternative, but there are people getting tossed off turnip trucks every day off every corner it seems: except some are on a perpetual 'bumpy' turnip truck on a spiraling highway to hell.
                                You'd probably do yourself a big favor in life if you could figure out why you need to insert this kind of thing into your posts. Debate on the facts and leave the garbage out.
                                Last edited by SecTrainer; 12-14-2007, 07:40 PM.
                                "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                                "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                                "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                                "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                                Comment

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