Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Patrol vehicles, what do you get to drive?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
    How does the equation work? The more fuel efficient your car is, the more likely you are to die in it... I can justify a CVPI just fine!
    Huh?!?! I don't think that's an assertion you can support at all, and if it were, the CVPI wouldn't come out at the top of a list of cars chosen by that criterion by a long shot. Operationally, the CVPI is neither necessary nor a good choice for security companies, with the possible exception of those that are purchased used from public safety agencies at sufficiently deep discounts to offset their operational cost disadvantages.
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 12-10-2007, 02:53 AM.
    "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

    "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

    "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

    "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

    Comment


    • Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
      Huh?!?! I don't think that's an assertion you can support at all.
      Fuel efficiency is gained by making cars lighter, you are more likely to die in a small (light) vehicle. Statistics don't lie.

      Americans who buy the smallest cars on the market are twice as likely to have fatal accidents as drivers of midsize and larger vehicles, according to a report being released today by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.

      http://www.boston.com/cars/news/arti...in_small_cars/
      ATTN. SPECOPS AND GECKO45 my secret username is CIDDECEP and I am your S2. My authorization code is Six Wun Quebec Oscar Fife. Your presence here is tactically dangerous and compromises our overall mission parameter. Cease and desist all activity on this board. Our “enemies” are deft at computer hacking and may trace you back to our primary locale. You have forced me to compromise my situation to protect your vulnerable flank. This issue will be addressed later.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
        Fuel efficiency is gained by making cars lighter, you are more likely to die in a small (light) vehicle. Statistics don't lie.

        Americans who buy the smallest cars on the market are twice as likely to have fatal accidents as drivers of midsize and larger vehicles, according to a report being released today by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety.

        http://www.boston.com/cars/news/arti...in_small_cars/
        Unfortunately, neither you nor your article are comparing what we were comparing - i.e., the CV to the CVPI. At least, I can't remember recommending the Yugo instead of a CVPI. Please stick to the subject.

        If weight was the determinant of vehicle safety, one wonders why anyone does all that crash testing. It must cost a ton of money and trouble. Why don't these stupid safety engineers just weigh the vehicles and rank them according to weight!?!

        If you want to become educated on vehicle safety, visit the real source of safety statistics here and you'll see that there's no direct correlation whatsoever between vehicle weight and vehicle safety. (HINT: Some SUVs are the least safe and yet the heaviest, while quite a few of the "lighter" cars are rated the safest).

        I'd put the operational cost differential into defensive driving training for officers instead of the gas tank. Security companies simply do not need pursuit vehicles, however "sexy" the officers might think it would be to have them, or however much it might make them feel like cops.
        Last edited by SecTrainer; 12-10-2007, 03:13 AM. Reason: Correct misspelling
        "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

        "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

        "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

        "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

        Comment


        • Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
          ...Security companies simply do not need pursuit vehicles, however "sexy" the officers might think it would be to have them, or however much it might make them feel like cops.
          While I agree with you on the point that security companies do not need PURSUIT vehicles, you're forgetting that there are some other advantages to the police package vehicles. They tend to have better electrical systems, (stronger alternators), and a beefier suspension that can handle the rigors of everyday beatings. While security may not engage in pursuits, the vehicles used by us DO take quite a beating.. Driving on gravel paths full of potholes, through huge mudpits, etc. At the very least if I were purchasing regular (civilian) versions of the CV, I would opt to get the better suspension installed asap to help keep problems from happening later.

          Just some food for thought...
          Corbier's Commandos - "Stickin it to the ninjas!"
          Originally posted by ValleyOne
          BANG, next thing you know Bob's your Uncle and this Sgt is seemingly out on his a$$.
          Shoulda called in sick.
          Be safe!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Charger View Post
            While I agree with you on the point that security companies do not need PURSUIT vehicles, you're forgetting that there are some other advantages to the police package vehicles. They tend to have better electrical systems, (stronger alternators), and a beefier suspension that can handle the rigors of everyday beatings. While security may not engage in pursuits, the vehicles used by us DO take quite a beating.. Driving on gravel paths full of potholes, through huge mudpits, etc. At the very least if I were purchasing regular (civilian) versions of the CV, I would opt to get the better suspension installed asap to help keep problems from happening later.

            Just some food for thought...
            ...and good points they are. Fortunately, both electrics and the suspension on the standard CV can be beefed up (electric very easily), and since (I think) 2002, the suspension on the standard CV is no lightweight when it comes to potholes.
            "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

            "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

            "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

            "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

            Comment


            • Originally posted by OccamsRazor View Post
              Gotcha beat- this is the pursuit vehicle of the future.

              You could use that to catch this dangerous pint sized felon!!!!!


              ~Black Caesar~
              Corbier's Commandos

              " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

              Comment


              • Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
                Unfortunately, neither you nor your article are comparing what we were comparing - i.e., the CV to the CVPI. At least, I can't remember recommending the Yugo instead of a CVPI. Please stick to the subject.

                If weight was the determinant of vehicle safety, one wonders why anyone does all that crash testing. It must cost a ton of money and trouble. Why don't these stupid safety engineers just weigh the vehicles and rank them according to weight!?!

                If you want to become educated on vehicle safety, visit the real source of safety statistics here and you'll see that there's no direct correlation whatsoever between vehicle weight and vehicle safety. (HINT: Some SUVs are the least safe and yet the heaviest, while quite a few of the "lighter" cars are rated the safest).

                I'd put the operational cost differential into defensive driving training for officers instead of the gas tank. Security companies simply do not need pursuit vehicles, however "sexy" the officers might think it would be to have them, or however much it might make them feel like cops.
                The CV vs. the CVPI operating costs are virtually identical. I should know, I have operated and maintained both. I think your getting hung up on the "I" in CVPI.

                The point of the "police package" isn't just for doing pursuits. Its specifically geared toward up-fitting with equipment that police or security may need for day to day operations. Check out the Ford Modifier's guide here https://www.fleet.ford.com/showroom/...Int-mguide.asp

                Its really not that hard of a decision to make, even between the CV and the CVPI.
                ATTN. SPECOPS AND GECKO45 my secret username is CIDDECEP and I am your S2. My authorization code is Six Wun Quebec Oscar Fife. Your presence here is tactically dangerous and compromises our overall mission parameter. Cease and desist all activity on this board. Our “enemies” are deft at computer hacking and may trace you back to our primary locale. You have forced me to compromise my situation to protect your vulnerable flank. This issue will be addressed later.

                Comment


                • I thought the CVPI engine was no different from the civi model??? Therefore, why would it be a pursuit vehicle?
                  If you fail to plan, plan to fail.

                  "People look to you to dig them out of life threatening dung - that is an awesome responsibility and should be honoured with your blood and sweat in preparation for the day when you may have to work very hard to save someone you might not even know or like. If you are terrible at your job, somebody gets blinded/maimed/disfigured or killed."-Slack

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by tacscuba View Post
                    I thought the CVPI engine was no different from the civi model??? Therefore, why would it be a pursuit vehicle?
                    Same engine, different horsepower rating. CV=224, CVPI=250.

                    There are other differences as well, such as improved suspension, upgraded electrical system and available fire supression system and ballistic front door panels. https://www.fleet.ford.com/downloads...ceIntercep.pdf

                    Not really relevant anymore however, Ford dropped the regular CV from the 2008 line-up.
                    ATTN. SPECOPS AND GECKO45 my secret username is CIDDECEP and I am your S2. My authorization code is Six Wun Quebec Oscar Fife. Your presence here is tactically dangerous and compromises our overall mission parameter. Cease and desist all activity on this board. Our “enemies” are deft at computer hacking and may trace you back to our primary locale. You have forced me to compromise my situation to protect your vulnerable flank. This issue will be addressed later.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
                      ...and good points they are. Fortunately, both electrics and the suspension on the standard CV can be beefed up (electric very easily), and since (I think) 2002, the suspension on the standard CV is no lightweight when it comes to potholes.
                      That dosen't make a lot of sense, why buy a new car and then throw it right in the shop to get "upgraded" to what the CVPI has as standard equipment?
                      ATTN. SPECOPS AND GECKO45 my secret username is CIDDECEP and I am your S2. My authorization code is Six Wun Quebec Oscar Fife. Your presence here is tactically dangerous and compromises our overall mission parameter. Cease and desist all activity on this board. Our “enemies” are deft at computer hacking and may trace you back to our primary locale. You have forced me to compromise my situation to protect your vulnerable flank. This issue will be addressed later.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
                        That dosen't make a lot of sense, why buy a new car and then throw it right in the shop to get "upgraded" to what the CVPI has as standard equipment?
                        Exactly! I'm starting to think he inserts counter-logical posts to see if anyone is reading. Or as the father of Transactional Analysis, Eric Bernes, would say, a perpetual I'm-Not-OK self-aware person playing a Look-At-ME(!!) psychological game from the subject's Deviant-Child ego state.
                        Last edited by ddog; 12-11-2007, 07:19 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
                          That dosen't make a lot of sense, why buy a new car and then throw it right in the shop to get "upgraded" to what the CVPI has as standard equipment?
                          Umm, you're not upgrading it to everything that the CVPI has as standard equipment, right? (Look at the two packages, and you'll see.)

                          Personally, I don't think the standard CV needs upgrading at all for security purposes other than perhaps the heavier-duty alternator and, depending on what gear will be used, a very inexpensive mod to the wiring harness and fuse panel. I have driven both - including a long trip in a standard CV around the back roads of western Canada (read, potholes, washouts, washboard roads, mud, etc.) and have driven the CVPI on patrol. The only time you would notice any difference in the suspension is on a very bad road or making a very sharp turn, etc. at very high speed. This takes me back to the statement that security vehicles are not used for pursuit.

                          And, when you look at security patrol vehicle requirements from a dead start, knowing nothing about the fact that PDs use CVs (which I suspect is a lot of the attraction for security guards, frankly), you probably wouldn't wind up picking the CV at all - standard or otherwise. It's a toss-up whether you'd select any of the "American" brands at all. Honda, Volvo, Toyota and Mitsubishi would appear high on your list.

                          It's interesting, but in my travels I've noticed that security companies all over the world tend to gravitate toward whatever cars are commonly used by the police in their countries, even though they have the same universe of possible vehicles available to them as those in other countries. This tendency suggests to me that it might not be cold hard evaluation of performance or cost measures that drive these decisions, but the universal desire of security companies to look as much like the police in their country as possible.
                          Last edited by SecTrainer; 12-12-2007, 11:30 AM.
                          "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                          "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                          "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                          "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ddog View Post
                            Exactly! I'm starting to think he inserts counter-logical posts to see if anyone is reading. Or as the father of Transactional Analysis, Eric Bernes, would say, a perpetual I'm-Not-OK self-aware person playing a Look-At-ME(!!) psychological game from the subject's Deviant-Child ego state.
                            Ddog, we never wondered why you were in security rather than practicing psychiatry at $250 an hour, so why should you feel the need to show us? What's next - your discoveries from EST?

                            It might just be that someone disagrees with you. Don't take it so hard.
                            Last edited by SecTrainer; 12-12-2007, 11:32 AM.
                            "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                            "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                            "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                            "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by SecTrainer View Post
                              Umm, you're not upgrading it to everything that the CVPI has as standard equipment, right? (Look at the two packages, and you'll see.)

                              Personally, I don't think the standard CV needs upgrading at all for security purposes other than perhaps the heavier-duty alternator and, depending on what gear will be used, a very inexpensive mod to the wiring harness and fuse panel. I have driven both - including a long trip in a standard CV around the back roads of western Canada (read, potholes, washouts, washboard roads, mud, etc.) and have driven the CVPI on patrol. The only time you would notice any difference in the suspension is on a very bad road or making a very sharp turn, etc. at very high speed. This takes me back to the statement that security vehicles are not used for pursuit.

                              And, when you look at security patrol vehicle requirements from a dead start, knowing nothing about the fact that PDs use CVs (which I suspect is a lot of the attraction for security guards, frankly), you probably wouldn't wind up picking the CV at all - standard or otherwise. It's a toss-up whether you'd select any of the "American" brands at all. Honda, Volvo, Toyota and Mitsubishi would appear high on your list.

                              It's interesting, but in my travels I've noticed that security companies all over the world tend to gravitate toward whatever cars are commonly used by the police in their countries, even though they have the same universe of possible vehicles available to them as those in other countries. This tendency suggests to me that it might not be cold hard evaluation of performance or cost measures that drive these decisions, but the universal desire of security companies to look as much like the police in their country as possible.

                              Did it ever cross your mind that there is a reason that police departments use
                              CVPI's and not honda cars, volvo, toyota and mitsubishi?

                              Do you really think a honda accord will hold up to the use of a police department?

                              Security and police use of vehicles is very similar, 99.95% of police use use has nothing to do with pursuit. It has a lot to do with constant idling, lots of city driving, and occasional abuse (intentional or not). Security use is very similar in this regard, so is taxi use. That is why you see CVPI's used in all three of these industries, it has nothing to do with looking more like the police. We already know that the general public is clueless when it comes to people in uniform, what brand of car you drive certainly isn't going to clear that up.

                              Not to sound like a Ford representative, but here are the benefits I see in a heavy duty CVPI package, that non of the cars you listed have:
                              • Alternator – 200-amp maximum output provides additional electrical capacity for police equipment
                              • Body-on-frame, RWD construction
                              • Coolers – For engine, power steering and transmission oil - Nice for a car that idles almost the whole shift.
                              • Heavy-duty frame
                              • Full-size spare tire and wheel - You can continue your shift after getting a flat
                              • Heavy-duty suspension
                              • Available Ballistic Door Panels from factory
                              • Spot-lamp assembly – Driver’s side or dual - from factory. Can Toyota or Honda accommodate this?
                              • Available Two-tone paint for those users that run a two-tone color scheme
                              • Available fire suppression system


                              I can't think of any non-service type vehicles that can offer all that. The regular Crown Vic doesn't cut it for heavy duty service either, but like I said in a previous post, they don't offer the regular Crown Vic for 2008 anyway.
                              ATTN. SPECOPS AND GECKO45 my secret username is CIDDECEP and I am your S2. My authorization code is Six Wun Quebec Oscar Fife. Your presence here is tactically dangerous and compromises our overall mission parameter. Cease and desist all activity on this board. Our “enemies” are deft at computer hacking and may trace you back to our primary locale. You have forced me to compromise my situation to protect your vulnerable flank. This issue will be addressed later.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Minneapolis Security View Post
                                Did it ever cross your mind that there is a reason that police departments use
                                CVPI's and not honda cars, volvo, toyota and mitsubishi?

                                Do you really think a honda accord will hold up to the use of a police department?

                                Security and police use of vehicles is very similar, 99.95% of police use use has nothing to do with pursuit. It has a lot to do with constant idling, lots of city driving, and occasional abuse (intentional or not). Security use is very similar in this regard, so is taxi use. That is why you see CVPI's used in all three of these industries, it has nothing to do with looking more like the police. We already know that the general public is clueless when it comes to people in uniform, what brand of car you drive certainly isn't going to clear that up.

                                Not to sound like a Ford representative, but here are the benefits I see in a heavy duty CVPI package, that non of the cars you listed have:
                                • Alternator – 200-amp maximum output provides additional electrical capacity for police equipment
                                • Body-on-frame, RWD construction
                                • Coolers – For engine, power steering and transmission oil - Nice for a car that idles almost the whole shift.
                                • Heavy-duty frame
                                • Full-size spare tire and wheel - You can continue your shift after getting a flat
                                • Heavy-duty suspension
                                • Available Ballistic Door Panels from factory
                                • Spot-lamp assembly – Driver’s side or dual - from factory. Can Toyota or Honda accommodate this?
                                • Available Two-tone paint for those users that run a two-tone color scheme
                                • Available fire suppression system


                                I can't think of any non-service type vehicles that can offer all that. The regular Crown Vic doesn't cut it for heavy duty service either, but like I said in a previous post, they don't offer the regular Crown Vic for 2008 anyway.
                                In answer to your questions:

                                1. Of course it crossed my mind, but it doesn't explain why the police in other countries use other makes. This is more easily explained by Ford's position in the North American police fleet market, actually.

                                2. Do I think an Accord would stand up to police use? Well, I don't know, but that's the whole point, isn't it? We're not the police, and I'm not suggesting Honda, Toyota, Mitsubishi or Volvo for police use, am I?

                                Having worked both sides of the line over many years, I can tell you that the similarities between PD and security vehicle use on patrol are not really great enough to warrant utilizing "police standards" about this.

                                3. Can Toyota/Honda, etc. handle spotlights? Of course they can - and light bars as well.

                                4. Any goober can get run-flat tires if that's important. While you're at it, get a vehicle fire extinguisher.

                                5. Some of the items mentioned above are not standard on the CVPI, so either way you're talking extra on those.

                                The point is simply this, and it doesn't have to become so emotional: When you look strictly at security patrol vehicle requirements, and stop fixating on police cars, you'll find differences in usage that create different criteria from police cars. There are a number of vehicles that meet these criteria quite admirably, with equal or greater storage space to the CV, equal or greater safety ratings than the CV, equal or greater reliability than the CV, equal or better handling characteristics, and at a MUCH lower total cost of ownership.

                                I'd rather spend my money on officers wages than to spend one unnecessary penny for the vehicles they drive, providing what they drive is high quality, presents a professional appearance, efficient to operate, and is comfortable for an officer to spend a shift in it.

                                I guarantee that if you did a spreadsheet using codes for the vehicle brands (so you're not influenced by their brand names), had them independently rated and then totaled up the scores, it would very likely surprise you when you exchanged the brand codes for the actual brand names and see what's top-ranked. You could be looking at a CV in top position, but it could be a Chevy Malibu, a Volvo V50, a Honda Element, a Saturn Vue or a Forrester. You'll never know until you shake off your prejudices and just look at the cold, hard facts.
                                Last edited by SecTrainer; 12-12-2007, 06:52 PM.
                                "Every betrayal begins with trust." - Brian Jacques

                                "I can't predict the future, but I know that it'll be very weird." - Anonymous

                                "There is nothing new under the sun." - Ecclesiastes 1:9

                                "History, with all its volumes vast, hath but one page." - Lord Byron

                                Comment

                                Leaderboard

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X