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  • warrior_oh58d
    replied
    Thanks for the feedback guys and again id like to reiterate that i'm sorry if there was any confusion as to my professional status. the ammo situation has been resolved within my chain of command and all is well. again thanks for the feedback

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  • FDG06
    replied
    Warrior,
    ...be carefull carrying any ammo in your duty weapon,that was NOT supplied by your employer as duty ammo, it seems as though your a smart guy, but this practice can open up huge liability should you actually have to engage a threat and you have non-issued ammo in your firearm. I've seen PO's fired/severly disaplined for such practice & the court system will have a field day with it.
    Be safe, Yoda

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  • talon
    replied
    Warrior,

    Thanks for clearing that up...welcome aboard and stay safe.

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  • warrior_oh58d
    replied
    i wasn't really done yet

    I work in the security industry right now in addition to my military duties, and have done so for some time now, i am not "new" and am in fact here to gain knowlege to assist me professionally and of course my companie's clients. as far as carrying the cor-bon ammo i spoke with my supervisor and he in turn spoke to the chief....as for now i stick with the 158grain lead nose however come qual time i will be permitted to qualify with both.

    Leave a comment:


  • warrior_oh58d
    replied
    lets get it straight

    I am not a company police officer, i am a US ARMY Military Police Officer(look at the badge as my avatar), which as stated before is covered under HR218, the ammo isn't really an issue to me i was just curious whether or not there were any restrictions as to the type of ammunition that would be allowed for use in this state...i didn't intend to mislead anyone as to my "status" in law enforcement or the security industry...anyways i just figured that needed some clearing up

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  • talon
    replied
    Originally posted by warrior_oh58d
    I know i stated before that i carry the Cor-Bon +p (in my .38) ammo but that is not what my company issued to me, after looking through the NC private protective services laws (NCGS 74C) i found nothing that limits the type of ammunition that can or cannot be used while on duty. if anyone else is able to clarify that for me i would be appreciative, i'm sure like most of you i work alot of dangerous places and i want to be sure that if in the event i have to use my weapon in defense of myself or others that i won't need "follow up" shots.....
    Warrior, I am wondering what type of work you do...earlier in this thread you seemed to (and correct me if I am wrong) imply that you are a Special Police Officer in N.C., however in the above statement you are looking in
    74-C the Private Protective Services act for answers to questions but this act does not govern Special Police.

    Are you a Special Police Officer? If so you must be very new...if not then you do need a civilian CCW to carry in N.C., also the "open carry" that you spoke of is for all intents and purposes only recognized on your property or work place...so be careful. You also state above that you carry personal ammo...if you didn't qualify with it you can't carry it, Security or Police.

    I'm not trying to "bust balls" but we are all here for legitimate information and networking, so lets lay all cards on the table and you will find a wealth of information.

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  • warrior_oh58d
    replied
    What about NC

    I know i stated before that i carry the Cor-Bon +p (in my .38) ammo but that is not what my company issued to me, after looking through the NC private protective services laws (NCGS 74C) i found nothing that limits the type of ammunition that can or cannot be used while on duty. if anyone else is able to clarify that for me i would be appreciative, i'm sure like most of you i work alot of dangerous places and i want to be sure that if in the event i have to use my weapon in defense of myself or others that i won't need "follow up" shots.....

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by GCMC Security
    Interesting to know! I was under the impression nada but ball. Thank you sir! I will have to research more!
    Yeah, that sounds like your employer talking, not the State of Florida. You can find out what ammo is authorized in your green book (Florida Security Officer's Handbook).

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  • GCMC Security
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    That's your company prohibiting Hydrashok, right? There's a lot of BS "urban legend" in Florida' security industry about what rounds a licensed security officer can carry under Chapter 5-N, Florida Administrative Code.

    Hydrashok is 100% legal in the state for security carry. Its the pre-fragmented or Glazers, or FMJ rounds (except in 9mm) that are "illegal."
    Interesting to know! I was under the impression nada but ball. Thank you sir! I will have to research more!

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  • ACP01
    replied
    My carry ammo is Winchester 230gr JHP Personal Defense in .45ACP.

    The 230gr is what my weapon is sighted for. The lighter rounds shoot VERY high, too high for fast shooting.

    Why the Personal Defense? Because it is designed to stay in the intended target whereas a regular duty round is designed for Max penetration which is about 13 inches. 13 inches is often more than the average torso depth.
    As I am most often in places where bystanders are in every direction I don't want a "pass-thru" hit down range.

    I have trained with this weapon and .45ACP in general long enough (Since 1973) that I don't have a problem with recoil so follow up shots are fast and on target.

    I used to carry Hydro-Shoks but they have a tendency to blow thru and that endangers those downrange.

    As was said a small hit is better than a big miss. You have to practice and not just standing at the firing line at the local range. As the saying goes you fight the same as you practice.

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    That's your company prohibiting Hydrashok, right? There's a lot of BS "urban legend" in Florida' security industry about what rounds a licensed security officer can carry under Chapter 5-N, Florida Administrative Code.

    Hydrashok is 100% legal in the state for security carry. Its the pre-fragmented or Glazers, or FMJ rounds (except in 9mm) that are "illegal."

    Leave a comment:


  • GCMC Security
    replied
    Dunno I had no problems with em, I carried them both on and off duty in MI but can't on duty down here.

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  • EMTjon
    replied
    While taliking ammunition - what do folks think about hydroshock ammunition. Anecdotaly, I've heard that it puts bigger, nastier holes in targets than traditional hollow points. Has anyone seen anything to agree/disagree?

    Leave a comment:


  • fatalflaw
    replied
    Well sticking to CLEET guidelines here in Oklahoma I am now able to carry concealed. I went Phase 1 & 2, then 4, and then 3 for Private Investigator. Since I had already completed 4, I was grandfathered into the armed private investigator and allowed to carry concealed (read: while working on a case). But at the end of phase 4, our instructor was also a certified by the state conceal and carry civilian instructor for our states conceal permit for well.. civilians. (kinda redundant, but I'm tired)

    Anywho, since Phase 4 met and exceeded the requirements for the civilian conceal and carry as well, we didn't have to take a seperate class, only had to fill out the packet, throw in some money, some pictures, send it off, and viola, I can now carry concealed all the time on or off duty with the exception of federal property obviously.

    Plus it helps I carry my own 100,000 dollar bond so whether I'm under my companies bond while on the clock or under my own when I go 10-7, I'm always covered.

    I do believe however that armed security guards, maybe with the addition of an extra class and requalification at a 50 yard range instead of Oklahomas 25 yard range, should be able to carry concealed by default or with minimal hassle.

    Also about types of guns, I believe it is a matter of size AND accuracy. I carry a .40 cal SIG P229R with Speer Gold Dot 180grn HP ammo. It's also my concealed weapon. The reason I chose to go with a .40 is because of the lowered kick it makes it easier to doubletap and reaquire a target after a kick, and since I work in alot of section 8 properties, I'll put it this way, a 9mm will just tickle or piss off a meth head. But to each his/her own, just qualify and qualify well and if you have to keep hitting the range and make sure your skill stays up there. Having a stray bullet can be a very scary thing.

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  • SecTrainer
    replied
    One thing I have noticed whenever 2 or more of us start talking firearms is that the conversation often deteriorates into a pissing contest about who's is bigger. The two most misunderstood topics (if they're discussed at all) are (1) the selection of ammunition as it relates to the "stopping" power of any given caliber and how this relates to what happens to stray rounds, and (2) the issue of whether you have skill in combat shooting at 3-15 yards.

    Taking item #2 first: Especially with respect to security officers in most "normal" armed venues (other than critical infrastructure, nuke plants, etc., in other words), the typical shooting situation is close-range. In situations out beyond 15 - 20 yards or so, you will often have some other option than engaging in a firefight at all, or else maybe you should be thinking about using something other than your sidearm. Where the SO is concerned, the firearm is usually restricted to saving life only - not "engaging bad guys" per se as LE officers might have to do (prevent escape, etc.).

    Few if ever "life-saving" situations involving use of the firearm will require you to be firing 100 yards downrange. I can't think of the last time I heard that a security officer outside of a "special" high-security venue was called upon to serve as a sniper or engage bad guys at a distance otherwise. (Before I get letters, I acknowledge that there are always exceptions, but let's train up our highest levels of skill so that we're good - very, very good - in the typical situation before we worry about the exceptions.)

    Close-range combat shooting typically has two characteristics that differ from shooting at a distance: (1) It's fast and chaotic, not deliberative...and (2) there's usually little or no cover between you and the bad guy. These two factors alone, among others, require totally different skills from situations where you're behind cover at a distance, wetting your sights and lining up your shot. Regardless of what your state or your agency "requires" in the way of training to be armed, get yourself some good solid training in close-range combat shooting and regardless of what caliber of weapon you carry, you'll be better off than blindly hoping that "bigger is better".

    Also, close-range combat skills will address that teensy-weensy problem of whether you even manage to pull your weapon in the first place so that they're not burying your 4-million-caliber-pistol-with-laser-sights-and-special-grips along with your flag-draped remains for the simple reason that all that firepower never even left the holster. Ever watch someone scrabbling for their gun? Was your first thought, "Gee, I hope that's a BIGGUN!"...or was it "Gee, I hope they manage to draw that thing!"

    With regard to #1, you should study any of the many resources available with respect to ammunition (FBI, NIJ, etc.) and what happens to a bullet when it does or does not hit your target...and, incidentally, where it hits your target. Few if any of us in security can justify carrying rounds that will travel 3 city blocks, pass through the engine block of a '49 Buick, penetrate six walls and kill an old lady just as she's about to drink her cocoa...and I mean, of course, justifying such rounds on the basis that ""Well, we need the stopping power, by Gar". If you need that kind of stopping power, I'd recommend you run over the perp with your patrol car - that's stopping power and you wouldn't kill the little old lady!

    For you agency owners, I'd highly recommend that you engage an expert in ammunition characteristics to study your specific (or likely) requirements with respect to both caliber and the type of ammunition, and then discuss the recommendations with your corporate counsel so that you can properly devise policies about what your officers carry - both the gun and in the gun - to avoid unreasonable levels of liability when a shooting goes down. My bet is that you'll be surprised to learn what you should not and do not need to carry. Smaller might be better in lots of ways...and just as deadly, if your folks know what they're doing with them. And if they don't, it won't mean much even if they're carrying bazookas.

    No doubt, there will have to be some trade-off between "stopping power" and the unintended consequences of stray rounds. The way you make up for any "loss" by making this trade-off is to train officers to hit the target. I'd trade one .32 hitting the target for any number of missed shots of any caliber you'd care to name.

    On the subject of off-duty carry, it's food for thought that the CIA and other intelligence agencies train up their people in the smaller calibers. Lots of times I'll carry a Beretta Tomcat .32 with Speer Gold Dots (hollowpoints) and I don't even think about "stopping power", but that's because I'm very, very good with this weapon and spend at least an hour a week practicing with it in combat fashion at 3 to 7 yards - which is where you usually meet the bad guys, especially off duty. I'm pretty confident that I'm going to put several of these rather amazing little beauties into the bad guy and tear up his guts before he puts something into me. I'm also not worrying overmuch about my rounds hitting someone in Toledo.

    Now, I've had some people who didn't understand caliber-versus-ammunition capability issues scoff at carrying anything less than a 9-mm. "A .32?" they hoot..."Just a mosquito bite!". For some odd reason, however, none of them have yet been willing to let me "bite" them with my "mosquito" (after all, it's "just a scratch", you say), even though I always generously make the offer to bite them, and even to pay for the rounds myself that I'd put in them, and what could be fairer than that? I don't know why they turn green and run away....maybe because it's not such a mosquito bite after all? I don't know. It's a puzzlement.

    Don't get sucked into thinking "bigger is better". Better (shooting) is better, no matter what size your thingie might be (I don't want to know). Men, especially, seem to have trouble with this concept that the main issue is not size, but accuracy (which I guess is why they put toilet seats on hinges just for us, although you'd really think we could manage to...well, you know...)
    Last edited by SecTrainer; 12-12-2006, 11:02 AM.

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