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Off Duty Carry?

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  • #16
    As a rule, I arrive at my site between 30 - 40 minutes early to catch up on emails, BOL's, etc...

    I get home around 0710, hack around on the comp until 0830 - 0845; Then I get up around 1700 or so, suck down about 3 coffees and get ready to leave for work at 1800... Therefore IMO, I dress for work right off, as I spend 10 hours at work, 1.25 hours one way driving (2.50 round trip), so that means 12 1/2 hours work related out of my day, and I live 50 plus miles away from my site to home; I would much sooner get dressed and be donw ith it than to hafta bring my crap into work and change then....
    “Two wrongs don't make a right, but three rights make a left”
    "I swear to God, I'm going to pistol whip the next guy that says 'Shenanigans' "... Capt. O'Hagan, "Super Troopers"

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    • #17
      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
      ...the 15 minutes they arrive prior to shift ...
      Aw, a Christmas wish!

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      • #18
        If I can't shop for my free member's card turkey at the only local supermarket, then maybe I'm in the wrong industry.

        My whole aim of this thread though is to prod at the notion that perhaps more should be done to make officers aware that things can happen off duty, and prepare them to deal with such. As of thus far in my career, all of my employers have made the assumption that the moment the uniform comes off, those we deal with will no longer pose any threat.

        Instead, without being prepared with how to respond while off duty, that is when many officers are at their most vulnerable, as any threat can see we lack a duty belt full of defensive tools, a radio to call for backup, and the "switched on" edge that comes with being on duty.


        Originally posted by Mr. Security
        The fact that he remained in the store with full knowledge of this individual's background raises a red flag in my mind if your underlined comment is completely accurate. I do, however, agree that it is impossible to avoid all areas where such an encounter may occur.
        Last edited by cnick001; 11-26-2006, 04:23 AM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Bill Warnock
          The difference between a public law enforcement officer and a security officer is the fact the public law enforcement is sworn to enforce the law 24 hours-a-day, 7-days-a-week. Armed or not, when the security officer finishes his tour of duty and leaves the protected space or area, he is an ordinary citizen, nothing more nothing less. The SO is paid by the company for whom he is employed. The LEO is paid out of taxpayers dollars for the specific duty of protecting the public interests.
          Police officers have been disciplined or fired for not doing their duty when a crime is committed in their presence or rendering assistance to uniformed LEOs when the need arises.
          Enjoy the day,
          Bill
          Good text book answer Bill, but not totally correct!!! Some departments forbid you from getting involved and tell there officers they would prefer that when off duty, act as a "good witness" and nothing more. A police officer is NEVER required to act UNLESS someones LIFE is in danger. Life in danger being the key word. But again it all depends on the department. Still when I go off duty in a security uniform i still see scum bags that i have dealt with.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by cnick001
            If I can't shop for my free member's card turkey at the only local supermarket, then maybe I'm in the wrong industry.

            My whole aim of this thread though is to prod at the notion that perhaps more should be done to make officers aware that things can happen off duty, and prepare them to deal with such. As of thus far in my career, all of my employers have made the assumption that the moment the uniform comes off, those we deal with will no longer pose any threat.

            Instead, without being prepared with how to respond while off duty, that is when many officers are at their most vulnerable, as any threat can see we lack a duty belt full of defensive tools, a radio to call for backup, and the "switched on" edge that comes with being on duty.
            Honestly, most of the people who are "switched on" and see themselves "on duty" in a security uniform usually already know about Color Codes, have their citizen CCWs, and are always at Condition Yellow.

            On average, the employer believes that since their guards never conf... no. Actually, its not even that. The employer is not responsible for what happens to you outside of work. Once you clock out, you're on your own. If you choose to wear a company uniform at that time, they really do fear being sued as you're still, by public perception, "their agent."

            Every company I have worked for has had the rule that you do not conduct personal business in their uniform. Now, in some states, being armed in uniform doesn't matter. In others, you're a felon carrying a weapon illegally, since it doesn't relate to your job function, nor are you even on the clock.

            For those who aren't switched on AT work, getting them switched on when not at work... is pointless. For those who are switched on at work, they will eventually stop switching themselves off.
            Some Kind of Commando Leader

            "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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            • #21
              Originally posted by VertigoODO
              Why dont Cops? The thing is that the Police get to carry so that they can protect themselves from this. Well if we are doing the same job "in a sense" why cant we carry to protect ourselves.
              The police are allowed to carry off-duty, because they're never actually "off-duty." Personal protection from previously arrested subjects is a secondary consideration.

              Security and law enforcement ARE NOT the same job, I'd have expected a retired cop to know that.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                The "best solution" to that problem I've heard, usually, is that "guards shall spend the 15 minutes they arrive prior to shift putting their uniform shirt on at the site. Guards shall take their uniform shirt off at the completion of shift, on site, before travelling."
                You'd better be paying me for that 15 minutes, otherwise I show up with the shirt on, 3-5 minutes before the shift starts.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Bill Warnock
                  The difference between a public law enforcement officer and a security officer is the fact the public law enforcement is sworn to enforce the law 24 hours-a-day, 7-days-a-week. Armed or not, when the security officer finishes his tour of duty and leaves the protected space or area, he is an ordinary citizen, nothing more nothing less. The SO is paid by the company for whom he is employed. The LEO is paid out of taxpayers dollars for the specific duty of protecting the public interests.
                  Police officers have been disciplined or fired for not doing their duty when a crime is committed in their presence or rendering assistance to uniformed LEOs when the need arises.
                  Enjoy the day,
                  Bill
                  I know that all police departments aren't the same however your statement does fit the one I retired from.
                  We were required by department policy to carry off duty. We also got paid to carry off duty.
                  If witnessing a serious criminal act, we were required to react. That didn’t necessarily require that you take an active aggressive action but we were required to notify law enforcement agency of jurisdiction and assist them in any part of the investigation. We were also required to render aid to any injured person.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jackhole
                    The police are allowed to carry off-duty, because they're never actually "off-duty." Personal protection from previously arrested subjects is a secondary consideration.

                    Security and law enforcement ARE NOT the same job, I'd have expected a retired cop to know that.
                    That didn’t necessarily require that you take an active aggressive action but we were required to notify law enforcement agency of jurisdiction and assist them in any part of the investigation. We were also required to render aid to any injured person.
                    NO ****!!! I know ASS! Understand though Security DOES arrest people, and it unfortunately endangers there personal life. And YES the police are OFF DUTY!!! Some departments have policies restricting police officers from getting involved with certain incidents. I dont expect someone who is not or has never been a cop to understand or know that.

                    And #2, Security Officers can be sued for negligence IF they are off duty and "witness" a serious incident and fail to report it. Thats for California. Just like an Off Duty EMT that keeps driving past an accident with injuries.
                    Last edited by VertigoODO; 11-26-2006, 10:16 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Not the exact wording but there is an article of the Canadian Criminal Code which makes it an offense not to provide first aid to someone who needs it when you have been trained to provide it. I don't know how this works in cases that Nathan always mentions where the security guard is forbidden to provide first aid.
                      I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                      Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by HotelSecurity
                        Not the exact wording but there is an article of the Canadian Criminal Code which makes it an offense not to provide first aid to someone who needs it when you have been trained to provide it. I don't know how this works in cases that Nathan always mentions where the security guard is forbidden to provide first aid.
                        If it's a life or death medical issue and no one else is willing or able to render assistance, then you do it. Saving your job or a life is a no-brainer decision.
                        Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by VertigoODO
                          NO ****!!! I know ASS! Understand though Security DOES arrest people, and it unfortunately endangers there personal life. And YES the police are OFF DUTY!!! Some departments have policies restricting police officers from getting involved with certain incidents. I dont expect someone who is not or has never been a cop to understand or know that.

                          And #2, Security Officers can be sued for negligence IF they are off duty and "witness" a serious incident and fail to report it. Thats for California. Just like an Off Duty EMT that keeps driving past an accident with injuries.
                          No need to get insulting, we're all adults here.

                          I'm familiar with arrests by security officers, I was one for 4 years and still hold my license in NY, actually. Arrests can be dangerous and the possibility of an encounter with an arrested subject while off-duty is real. However, the training of security officers is not where it needs to be in most cases, therefore "off-duty carry" legislation for security officers is extremely premature. I feel that until we can make the standards for hiring and training security officers more stringent and uniform from state-to-state, this type of legislation is dangerous. I don't say this because I have a problem with security officers, I say it because I was one and know that the majority of the ones I've met aren't fit to handle that type of responsibility. For now, I urge all security officers that feel they need to carry a firearm off-duty to apply for a concealed weapons permit.

                          Also, you're incorrect about the police being "off-duty." We're never off-duty. If we were, I wouldn't be required to carry my weapon with me every time I left the house, would I?

                          Additionally, I'm intimately familiar with "duty to act/report" legislation, considering that I'm also a certified EMT and have been so for the better part of 5 years.
                          Originally posted by VertigoODO
                          I dont expect someone who is not or has never been a cop to understand or know that.
                          Nor would I. Glad to know we're on the same page.
                          Last edited by Jackhole; 12-02-2006, 12:40 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Jackhole
                            Hmmm... I should hope this comment wasn't directed at me. Otherwise, my Chief and the South Carolina Department of Public Safety would definitely disagree.

                            I'll admit I'm a newbie, but 1 day or 20 years - a cop is a cop.
                            Jackhole:
                            I too hope that comment was not directed at you, other retirees or former LEOs. A police officer is never, never off duty. He is a LEO 24/7. The responsibilities are always there even when on vacation. I drew days off, worked but not paid, for not having both credentials and sidearm when there was a problem. Once in security, that burden was lifted. For three years, I had CCW permit, then I moved and didn't need or want that responsibility ever again. Security can be scary at times and that is when you have an armed LEO or SO escort you in the performance of your duties.
                            I'll admit I practice with the sidearms I own and in between times use CO2 pistol to practice.
                            Enjoy the day,
                            Bill

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                            • #29
                              Ok... As far as "off-duty" carry for security... Lets change the term to something that illustrates the security person's job a bit better.

                              A security person who is not at work loses their authority (vested by the state through a permit) to carry in most cases. The term "on-duty" and "off-duty" gives the connotation of "police," and people equate it that way.

                              I know that Minnesota has "off-duty" carry for security persons because the firearms permit is a CCW/Open-Carry Citizen's permit. In other words, the same permit that lets you carry concealed or openly as a citizen allows you to carry openly as a security officer. The only thing that changes is that the restricted areas for carry vanish "in performance of duties."

                              So, a person who got off work at their security job in MN can take their shirt off, put on a hoodie, and walk around with their gun still on (showing or not) at 7-11 or Target.

                              --

                              As to police having "on-duty" or "off-duty" status, this is goverened in some states by agency policy. A LEO may only carry "off-duty" in Florida if his agency approves it in writing for the agency. That's right, the Chief LEO of your agency can say, "You guys can't carry." They're free to get CCWs if they want, though, but are subject to all the restrictions of a CCW.

                              I've heard of California agencies limiting the power to carry as well as the power to make arrests in the name of the state to "on-duty" status only. Its a liability issue, and the insurance underwriter doesn't want the agency making arrests in plain clothes or having cops running around with city/county guns (which are part of the insurance policy) in the name of the state/county/city.

                              Generally, these probably aren't good places to work for.

                              Always remember, just because state law gives a LEO the power to do something, doesn't mean his agency can't make a general order prohibiting it. Do it, and its legal, yeah... But you may be fired for it.
                              Some Kind of Commando Leader

                              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                              • #30
                                not really true

                                Originally posted by Bill Warnock
                                The difference between a public law enforcement officer and a security officer is the fact the public law enforcement is sworn to enforce the law 24 hours-a-day, 7-days-a-week. Armed or not, when the security officer finishes his tour of duty and leaves the protected space or area, he is an ordinary citizen, nothing more nothing less. The SO is paid by the company for whom he is employed. The LEO is paid out of taxpayers dollars for the specific duty of protecting the public interests.
                                Police officers have been disciplined or fired for not doing their duty when a crime is committed in their presence or rendering assistance to uniformed LEOs when the need arises.
                                Enjoy the day,
                                Bill
                                You see here in the state of north carolina we have company or special police, which are card carrying law enforcement officers that work contracts just like a SO, his powers of arrest exist only where the contract is held and when he goes home at the end of the day he is no longer expected to enforce the law, however since he is a LEO he can carry concealed anywhere he wants to. I fortunately dont have to worry about getting a ccw (reference avatar) and here we also have open carry laws.
                                Be Professional And Courteous, But Never Forget The Next Person You Meet You May Have To Kill.

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