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  • #16
    They can not only be dangerous but unless you saw which one was the aggressor you can’t really take action on ether party unless they are a threat to the safety of others. We always call the State Police upon such a thing in progress, also calling our D.O.T. Captain that’s on duty for that shift for back up. Though we do pro-active security on a state facility the procedure states the lone S/O allows the transgressors to have at it until back up arrives (again unless innocents are in danger try to intervene). Despite having cuffs, a baton and a weapon two uniforms are always better. We don’t have any CS or anything as such so that useful tool is not an option. Besides in the event it gets nasty you not only have back up you have a professional witness that is on your side. If the attacker can not be determined it’s a problem we let the state attorneys office and local LE worry about. We have had such people charged with trespass warnings after they are in control or in custody in the presence of a LEO. Usually the one who started it or was the attacker. But sometimes though rarely we do all to remain neutral in the whole thing till it’s determined by the SAO on what’s going to proceed after the arrest and processing. So far, it's been mostly drunks. Parking lot pissers, a few couples spatting (those can get bad too though). Bus and limo loads of tours, weddings and party animals. Hanicap violators and the ususal idoit with a trailer decides to take up five spots in the parking lot. Oh, and lets not forget the truck drivers and bus loads of immigrants.
    My views, opinions and statements are my own. They are not of my company, affiliates or coworkers.

    -Being bagger at Publix has more respect these days

    -It's just a job kid deal with it

    -The industry needs to do one of two things; stop fiddling with the thin line and go forward or go back to that way it was. A flashlight in one hand and your set of keys in the other

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    • #17
      Dont break up a fight in a Mall with pepper spray. They AC will circulate through the mall. Indoors do not use spray!!!! Out doors, have at it. When entering in a fight, watch it untill backup arrives. Call Police as well. We tend to wait until the police are present unless we have 4 or more officers, 3 for the fight and 1 for crowd control. All we need is an on-looking friend to all of the sudden reach forward and take our gun, thats why the 4th even 5th guy is so important. Immediately cuff the aggitator, even if its the original victim. It will calm him down. Then get them away from public view (i.e. your office, the back of your patrol car.), keep witnesses at the scene not with the suspects

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Echos13
        They can not only be dangerous but unless you saw which one was the aggressor you can’t really take action on ether party unless they are a threat to the safety of others. We always call the State Police upon such a thing in progress, also calling our D.O.T. Captain that’s on duty for that shift for back up. Though we do pro-active security on a state facility the procedure states the lone S/O allows the transgressors to have at it until back up arrives (again unless innocents are in danger try to intervene). Despite having cuffs, a baton and a weapon two uniforms are always better. We don’t have any CS or anything as such so that useful tool is not an option. Besides in the event it gets nasty you not only have back up you have a professional witness that is on your side. If the attacker can not be determined it’s a problem we let the state attorneys office and local LE worry about. We have had such people charged with trespass warnings after they are in control or in custody in the presence of a LEO. Usually the one who started it or was the attacker. But sometimes though rarely we do all to remain neutral in the whole thing till it’s determined by the SAO on what’s going to proceed after the arrest and processing. So far, it's been mostly drunks. Parking lot pissers, a few couples spatting (those can get bad too though). Bus and limo loads of tours, weddings and party animals. Hanicap violators and the ususal idoit with a trailer decides to take up five spots in the parking lot. Oh, and lets not forget the truck drivers and bus loads of immigrants.
        Wow, Florida law is SO different. We could hook you up for fighting no matter if your victim or not. Once someone attempts to break it up and you continue its considered "dueling". neither can charge the other, thats called "mutual combat"... It all depends on how far the original victim takes it if he is winning the fight.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by VertigoODO
          Dont break up a fight in a Mall with pepper spray. They AC will circulate through the mall. Indoors do not use spray!!!!

          In my experience, it is best to use pepper that discharges the chemical in a stream, not a fog or cone pattern. The fog/cone pattern may effect everyone in the area, including yourself, while the stream is more accurate and direct. You may be liable if you accidently get a inocent bystander.

          Just my silly 2 cents.
          "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

          ~~George Orwell.

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          • #20
            Just an interesting story of breaking up a fight years ago. Military base enlisted club, bunch of fellas who had been in the field for a period and were turned loose for some R&R for the week end. I had simply stopped in to drop off an item for the club manager as a favor to another DOD Cop. I walked in the front door and heard the racket. Thinking to myself, "Wow. These people are having a rocking Friday night". As I enter the bar area I found several men were having a knockdown-dragout fight. The manager was on the phone calling security (I assumed. Yeah, I know). No way I could just back out now. I'd be called in with the others anyway. I took out my nightstick and started tapping it loudly on a table. Just constantly tap, tap, tap. People started moving away from me and it started getting quiet. The fellas in the fight slowed down and stopped fighting and just looked at me. All I could think to say was, "Those tables and chairs belong all over the place?". "No Sir." And they began picking things up and putting the place back in order. Now we're all buddies. I expected back up to come flying thru the door at any time. So I walked over to the manager and handed him the package. I asked what "the desk" told him about response. To which he said, "Oh. I hung up after I saw you come in." To which I had to go relieve myself.
            Last edited by mh892; 11-16-2006, 05:08 PM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Special Investigator
              In my experience, it is best to use pepper that discharges the chemical in a stream, not a fog or cone pattern. The fog/cone pattern may effect everyone in the area, including yourself, while the stream is more accurate and direct. You may be liable if you accidently get a inocent bystander.

              Just my silly 2 cents.
              Agreed. Stream is for single targets. Cone or Fogger is for area denial and area of effect operations where you are trying to retake an area from hostiles or create a no-man's-land by deploying chemical spray in it.

              I've used heavy fogger (In Florida) in an area denial role. It was successful at denying space, but not incapcaitating those who entered it. Really good for laying down a buffer between you and a hostile crowd or person, or for something that the offender will run into.
              Some Kind of Commando Leader

              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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              • #22
                Originally posted by VertigoODO
                Wow, Florida law is SO different. We could hook you up for fighting no matter if your victim or not. Once someone attempts to break it up and you continue its considered "dueling". neither can charge the other, thats called "mutual combat"... It all depends on how far the original victim takes it if he is winning the fight.
                California has codified citizen's arrest. Florida does not, and uses the common law "breach of the peace" rule. Since two people are creating a breach of the peace (disorderly conduct and battery) by fighting, you CAN hook them both up.

                A friend of mine who's a Sheriff's Lieutenant is well versed in BOP arrests in Florida, because his deputies have went over the county line and reverted to citizen status. Their arrests were lawful as they were arresting for breaches of the peace.

                Unlike CA, Florida LEOs do not have statewide law enforcement powers, only powers in their jurisdiction. Out of jurisidiction, they're basically a security officer for all intents and purposes, unless the other jurisdiction gives them reciprocity in their jurisidction. No powers of arrest other than a private citizen, and the authority to carry a gun.

                Keep in mind, when I asked him what training LEOs get on citizen's arrest in Florida, he noted that they are not trained in it at all, nor do they really know what a citizen can and cannot do. This is why many agencies will say, "security guards cannot arrest," yet then turn around and tell their members that they can arrest for BOP outside of their jursidiction. They don't connect the citizen's arrest with... being a citizen.
                Some Kind of Commando Leader

                "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                • #23
                  You are sure right about police not knowing the laws concerning citizen's arrest. In Canada a citizen (other than the owner of property or his agent) can not arrest for a Summary Conviction Offense (Mistomeanor) unless the person is being chased by someone who can make the arrest. One day I was walking home & saw a guy vandalise a glass case in front of the old Montreal Forum. There was nothing inside to steal, just the letters announcing the upcoming events. Simple vandalism is a Summary Conviction offense. I called the police (who can arrest on reasonable & probable grounds) but let him go. The police officers that arrived knew me from the hotel & was upset that I had not held him. I had to explain the law to them!
                  I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                  Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by VertigoODO
                    Dont break up a fight in a Mall with pepper spray. They AC will circulate through the mall. Indoors do not use spray!!!! Out doors, have at it. When entering in a fight, watch it untill backup arrives. Call Police as well. We tend to wait until the police are present unless we have 4 or more officers, 3 for the fight and 1 for crowd control. All we need is an on-looking friend to all of the sudden reach forward and take our gun, thats why the 4th even 5th guy is so important. Immediately cuff the aggitator, even if its the original victim. It will calm him down. Then get them away from public view (i.e. your office, the back of your patrol car.), keep witnesses at the scene not with the suspects
                    It is safe to use indoors. We use Foam, so there are no floating particals. In the event of a fogger, we absolutely try to refrain from using indoors, but if it was to ever get bad enough, I think the justification is there.

                    Read my thread in the Gear and Equipment section. I have alot of info concerning OC. You will end up a little more confortable with it. Believe me, when I was first approached with OC certs, I was very concerned about indoors, but there are designs out there for this issue!
                    Deputy Sheriff

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                    • #25
                      Any Canadian members want to join me & push to get the laws changed to allow us to use Pepper Spray?
                      I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                      Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I pray for the day over here we can use capsicum spray!

                        I work in a terrible location which has hard core fights and violence 3 times a week. It's not uncommon for me to have to rescue one or two people from 20+ offenders belting the daylights out of them. As I write this reply I'm currently off-duty recovering from several metal bar stools to the back of the head after trying to drag an Italian tourist to safety after a gang of well known local thugs visciously assaulted him. I'm a bit sore and sorry but I'll live.

                        We are not allowed capsicum spray by law over here, so it makes it even more of a challenge. If it's one to two guys I'll wade in and seperate them carefully with my offsider, however if there are more than three I give three warnings to cease and if I consider someones safety to be in grave and immediate danger I go in with the baton blazing and also full force kicks to the thighs. I strike the arm/shoulder are as to the thigh and knee area. The last time I used the baton several weeks ago, when the Police turned up hey asked the two offenders to stand up, they replied "we can't". The Police asked them "why not?" and they replied "Our knees don't work as he (pointing to me) used the baton on us and now we can't stand up". I forgot to mention how they attempted to attack me with pool cues However, you really must becarefull not to have the baton taken from you and then used on you!

                        My advice is train hard, with your capsicum spray and also batons plus your PPCT etc.

                        My best advice is get a well trained German Shepherd, and walk through the fight and watch the offenders part like the Red Sea

                        I have a newspaper clipping of my recent incident, but it's to big and I need to scale it down 97KB before I can post it up. If someone can tell me how to do it (It's a JPEG image saved in My Documents) I'll be forever gratefull and will post it up.

                        Kind regards and stay safe.
                        A well trained dog is worth 10 men!

                        I can recall my dog, but I can never recall a fired bullet!

                        Would you prefer me to use the dog, the Glock, the baton or the O.C. spray? It's your health insurance so you decide. Alternatively there is always the handcuffs, followed by the Police with the court house preceeding rapidly after. Now which service would you like me to utilise

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                        • #27
                          I share your frustrations!

                          Granted when I first took over the mall I am at now, it wasnt authorized in restraints or OC, but the officers were getting their keesters handed to them daily. I had a long and difficult fight with management and corporate to get these things now, which make a major impact, even on officer confidence to handle situations. Officers arent as afraid to handle situations, and use better descretion.. Which is something I wish all of your local legislative decision making guru's understood.

                          I am not encouraging anarchy or anthing, but maybe liazoning with other agencies that may feel the same and petitioning for a change is an option. Anything that is worth fighting for is not easy, but it never hurts to try! I totally and completely sympathise with all of you who have these restrictions. I dont feel it is fair or right either!
                          Deputy Sheriff

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                          • #28
                            [QUOTE=Mall Director]It is safe to use indoors. We use Foam, so there are no floating particals. In the event of a fogger, we absolutely try to refrain from using indoors, but if it was to ever get bad enough, I think the justification is there./QUOTE]

                            Ya Foam for us is a NO-GO because the officers have Tasers, IE, foam is flamable, we'd be lighting people on fire everyday, not that some people dont need to get burned, but it might be viewed as excessive. LOL

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                            • #29
                              Actually you could use Sabre red H20 series foam because its taser safe. It says so on the canister and my officers carry it and we have tasers.
                              "Get yourself a shovel cause your in deep Sh*t"

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                              • #30
                                As a side note, I have seen a variety of subjects TASERed after being subjected to a variety of sprays and foams... not one flaming fellow yet.
                                "Alright guys listen up, ya'll have probably heard this before, Jackson vs. Securiplex corporation; I am a private security officer, I have no State or governmental authority. I stand as an ordinary citizen. I have no right to; detain, interrogate or otherwise interfere with your personal property-... basically all that means is I'm a cop."-Officer Ernie
                                "The Curve" 1998

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