You Be The Cop #1

[Special Investigator]

What would you do in this situation if you were the police? (You can apply this scenairo if your security on patrol)

* This is a true story I experienced while as a Milwaukee Police Officer back in the late 1970's.


You and your partner are on patrol in a low income neigbhorhood late in the evening. As you drive down the street, you are flagged down by a citizen/neigbhor. As you pull up and stop, you hear a woman screaming and see a black male beating up a woman in the front yard of a house. You get out of your squad and confront the two. The black male doing the beating, sees you and jumps up and runs into the house. NOTE: If you are security, lets say the suspect stops short of the front door, if your the police, the suspect runs into the house.) You and your partner chase the suspect to/into the house and apprehend the suspect. The woman being beaten follows you into the house, or goes into the house, and goes into the ajoining room screaming. Your about to place the suspect into handcuffs when you hear the racking of a shotgun behind you.

Now the woman, who was being beaten by the suspect has a shotgun pointed at you and your partner and she is yelling at you to "let him go, your not taking him".


Q. What would/should you do?

[EMTGuard]

Since I can't aprehend or hold anyone I get in my patrol vehicle and lock the doors. I back up to a safe distance and call 911 on my cellphone. I tell dispatch I have witnessed a assult in progress and give a description of the victim and assalant.
I don't have a gun, cuffs or any right to put my hands on anyone.

[HotelSecurity]

I don't have a gun, cuffs or any right to put my hands on anyone.

In Canada you do have the right to use the force necessary to stop the breech of peace, all citizens do.

[OccamsRazor]

...has a shotgun pointed at you and your partner...

Ability, opportunity and jeopardy.

She has the ability to injure or kill me, partner or the arrestee (shotgun).

She has the opportunity (shotgun pointed at us and racked)

My life, partner's and the arrestee's lives are, in the view a reasonable person placed in an identical situation would take, in immediate jeopardy.

Center mass while seeking cover, shoot to stop the threat.

[VertigoODO]

Ability, opportunity and jeopardy.

She has the ability to injure or kill me, partner or the arrestee (shotgun).

She has the opportunity (shotgun pointed at us and racked)

My life, partner's and the arrestee's lives are, in the view a reasonable person placed in an identical situation would take, in immediate jeopardy.

Center mass while seeking cover, shoot to stop the threat.

I have to agree BUT, I would probably never had let it get that far to begin with. But in the situation I would agree with her and simulate taking the handcuffs off of the suspect, then draw out and open up on her.

[VertigoODO]

Sorry, and as a security guard, I would have given her the keys and called 911, this is a hard scenario to quarterback. Did she go into the house while we were at the front door, if so take him in front of me and get to the other side of the wall, dive down, draw out and begin talking her down, while calling 911. If she comes out with the shotgun, it would depend on what she is doing.

[wvd1979]

I think this is a hard thing to predict until you are actually there. I might talk a good game, but if I was looking into the barrel of a shotgun my response might be different.

[N. A. Corbier]

We dealt with domestics in low income a lot.

First thing was understood that at onset, more units were requested since its in progress. Police, security, don't care who, just send me more people.

If the guy runs inside his house, I'm not going to chase after him alone. My partner would already be with the woman, both to acertain her injuries and to keep an eye on her.

Why? Because domestics usually turn bad, like it did in this story. The woman may switch sides. In fact, she probably will switch sides. If he runs, I no longer care about him, because we're doing our contractual duty - protecting the victim from violent attack as an invitee or leasee of the owner's property.

Now, something that HAS happened is you start to cuff the bad guy, and the wife goes nuts on you. Which is why you treat both of them as you want to be treated, while mentally preparing for them both (or someone else in the area) to kill you.

[Bill Warnock]

We dealt with domestics in low income a lot.

First thing was understood that at onset, more units were requested since its in progress. Police, security, don't care who, just send me more people.

If the guy runs inside his house, I'm not going to chase after him alone. My partner would already be with the woman, both to acertain her injuries and to keep an eye on her.

Why? Because domestics usually turn bad, like it did in this story. The woman may switch sides. In fact, she probably will switch sides. If he runs, I no longer care about him, because we're doing our contractual duty - protecting the victim from violent attack as an invitee or leasee of the owner's property.

Now, something that HAS happened is you start to cuff the bad guy, and the wife goes nuts on you. Which is why you treat both of them as you want to be treated, while mentally preparing for them both (or someone else in the area) to kill you.

Nathan:
I don't know which one concerned me more, a domestic or a traffic stop in the middle of nowhere. I've been scared out of my wits with both. But more officers have been severly injured in domestics that in traffic stops.
That is why a battered woman will defend her battering husband or boyfriend is a part of psychology I've never understood regardless of who taught the course.
In many instances, the police arrest (we did) both parties, have social services take custody of minors and let either the mental health or legal profession handle the rest.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[bigshotceo]

As a security guard or cop, I'd probably just let the guy go and leave. As it is, it would seem like the best way to avoid anyone getting shot. Besides, the police can send over an ERT team or whatever else is necessary.

[Mall Director]

True life response..

This is my actual response of a similiar incident. Though no twhen i was operating in security, or law enforcement.. It was in time of war.

Middle of the day, hot as you know what, myself and our sqaud were conducting foot patrol through a residential complex in Baghdad. We came under fire from a few male targets, that had immediately turned around and ran inside the complex after engaging us. My "battle buddy", lacking intellegence on a few occassions, became upset and followed the targets into the facility. I followed behind him, until I realized we left our squad outside, still engaging another target. My buddy ran up a set of stairs to follow these individuals. I started to follow, but as the lighting in the building deminished, I stopped and took position from around a corner. I yelled out to his retarded butt, to get his keester back here. He stopped and became upset with me. He wanted to know why I had stopped. I simply put it to him "do you see the others (refering to our sqad)? Dont take another step up there!" He looked at me with alot of frustration, but complied. We backed ourselves out, and waited for the others to catch up. Once every one was together, we went in. It was just shortly later after neutralizing these targets on the third floor, that if he had gone up by himself, I would be left packing his personal effects up to go home with him in his body bag. At first the targets had minimal firepower, but when we stopped the threat (as a team) we found several ordanances and munitions that a sinlge soldier could not have overcome.

My instict told me that if I followed him up those stairs, and into a long hallway I was not familiar with that had poor visibility, then the outcome would not have been so positive. But instead of just sitting idly by watching my buddy go up alone, and not following, he would have ended up in a bad spot. This is why I called him back and waited. Did we get every one of them, no. But we are all alive, and thats what really matters.

Never rush into a house or area you are not familiar with. Never trust whats behind you either. If it doesnt wear the same uniform as you, its a danger!

In your situation, had I been in that spot, I would have called out to my partner to stop. If he refuses and continues in on his own accord, more power to him. Two dead officers wont make a bad situation better, those we cant save everyone. When people run into their own homes, thats not a good sign, and definately an indicator to stay out until fully prepared. They know whats in there, you dont. Though it may drive you insane to wait outside the door, do it anyways. If he gets shot over making such a mistake, then its all on him, you didnt force him to go into a bad situation. We all make our own choices, make sure yours carry you through to another day!

[Mr. Security]

I would think an academy instructor would fault you for two things:

- Entering the house before back-up arrived
- Not maintaining a visual on both parties

Unfortunately, once she has a SHOTGUN leveled at you, you basically have become a hostage w/ little choice but to comply and use verbal skills to try to diffuse the crisis until you are no longer at gun point.

[N. A. Corbier]

This is not for the weak of heart, nor is this for a time when you think you can make it out alive. If you feel you have no other options, and you're about to eat a slug from that 12 gauge, then this is the time to remember this... You either stand there and die, or you fight and maybe live. Or die. Either way... its past the time to talk and cooperate, its time to act and choose to die fighting.

You can, if you are lucky, defeat a person using a shotgun if you are within the minimum operational distance of the shotgun. What this means is that the person using it is so close that you can get inside the muzzle of the gun before she wants to shoot. The trick, of course, is doing this BEFORE she pulls the trigger. Cause once that happens, no matter how fast you are, you're going to eat buckshot.

Once you're in, clamp the barrel between your arm and your trunk, with the muzzle BEHIND YOU. You've locked the weapon down. Did I mention this woman was trying to kill you? Go to town with collarbone strikes, head strikes, and anything else you think will make her stop trying to kill you.

If you are going to die, die fighting.

[Mr. Security]

Remember Nathan, her command is to let the guy go OR else. You are assuming that she will use deadly force no matter what. I don't read it that way. If you comply and still sense that she will kill, then I agree, don't just stand there.

[Bill Warnock]

Remember Nathan, her command is to let the guy go OR else. You are assuming that she will use deadly force no matter what. I don't read it that way. If you comply and still sense that she will kill, then I agree, don't just stand there.

Mr. Security, Nathan was correct in his comments. She has the weapon, she knows or should know the LEO or whomever, will cite her for pointing a weapon and communicating a threat to a LEO. Chances are you cannot negotiate and calmly walk away. You are there to perform your duty. You must isolate and neutralize the situation.
LEOs are criticized for entering with weapons drawn. You can't draw a weapon when faced with a shotgun. She raises the shotgun you shoot! I know that sounds callous but I'd rather be called callous then die on duty.
When I was in that line of work, I (we) never entered a threat area with a holstered sidearm.
Enjoy the day,
Bill