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  • LEO K-9 Question

    The ODMP.org posted the murder of the following police officer:

    Police Officer Thomas T. Wood
    Maywood Police Department
    Illinois
    Monday, October 23, 2006

    The narrative indicates that he was a K-9 officer and was shot while stopped at an intersection. My question: Unless a rifle was used from some distance away, why wouldn't the K-9 have alerted this officer to an approaching gunman? There are many accounts of K-9's doing this in wartime.
    Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

  • #2
    Originally posted by Mr. Security
    The ODMP.org posted the murder of the following police officer:

    Police Officer Thomas T. Wood
    Maywood Police Department
    Illinois
    Monday, October 23, 2006

    The narrative indicates that he was a K-9 officer and was shot while stopped at an intersection. My question: Unless a rifle was used from some distance away, why wouldn't the K-9 have alerted this officer to an approaching gunman? There are many accounts of K-9's doing this in wartime.
    He was inside his vehicle at the time, as was the K-9. Don't know what the dog did or didn't do, but it dosen't take long to walk up to a window and pop someone.

    Thats why you see police officers get out of their vehicles when people approach. It's hard as heck to access your weapon quickly and effectivley sitting in a car, and impossible to "dodge" at all. Outside the vehicle you have more freedom of movement. The Car gives a very false sense of security.

    This guy was bushwacked, pure and simple.
    ~Black Caesar~
    Corbier's Commandos

    " "The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Black Caesar
      He was inside his vehicle at the time, as was the K-9. Don't know what the dog did or didn't do, but it dosen't take long to walk up to a window and pop someone.

      Thats why you see police officers get out of their vehicles when people approach. It's hard as heck to access your weapon quickly and effectivley sitting in a car, and impossible to "dodge" at all. Outside the vehicle you have more freedom of movement. The Car gives a very false sense of security.

      This guy was bushwacked, pure and simple.
      So true and very sad. When I sit in my car in uniform, I always park in such a manner that I can keep a visual on anyone who is approaching. There is another cop-killer at large in CA too. I hope they get them before someone else is assassinated.
      Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

      Comment


      • #4
        Dislike being in a murder box. I mean car. Also, The K-9 may not alert in time because he's trapped in his own little murder box, I mean cage.

        I've known K-9s that get so excited in the back they're always alerting. Others are really quiet.
        Some Kind of Commando Leader

        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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        • #5
          2 cops that I used to deal with at my hotel (both English speaking which is rare in Montreal) were shot in the head while questioning a person in a park while sitting in their patrol car. Both survived but both could never go back to regular police work.
          I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
          Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

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          • #6
            Baffled

            I know police work is dangerous. Still, I have a difficult time accepting that some of these deaths couldn't have been prevented. Here are the incidents I am referring to:

            - Bullet misses the vest because of a gap in the side, near the shoulder, or just below the collarbone.

            - Car accidents where officers are speeding to an emergency

            - Accidental shootings, even by firearm INSTRUCTORS at a training range

            - Traffic stops where back up isn't automatically sent unless called off by the officer making the stop. Also, instances where a plate is not called in before initiating the stop.

            - Executing felony warrants when the suspect is in his/her home instead of waiting for the person to be in a safe area out in the open.

            Obviously, not all situations are cut and dry. Nevertheless, IMO, the death toll is higher than need be.
            Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

            Comment


            • #7
              As sort of an extension of something Mr. Security mentioned. In other areas are traffic stops made by one man cars or only two man cars?

              In the City of Montreal only two man cars can make a traffic stop. The SQ patrols the highways. They have one man cars in the day but two man at night.
              I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
              Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by HotelSecurity
                As sort of an extension of something Mr. Security mentioned. In other areas are traffic stops made by one man cars or only two man cars?

                In the City of Montreal only two man cars can make a traffic stop. The SQ patrols the highways. They have one man cars in the day but two man at night.
                Around here, almost everyone runs 1 officer to a car. Philaldelphia has everyone doubled up this week for safety because of some radio-system issues.

                Many of the local departments will do a summary traffic stop on a vehicle with a single occupant as a single officer. They will request backup at the officer's discretion. If it is a felony car-stop, (plate/vehicle comes back stolen, etc) you get everyone and their brother there. You also get 2 or 3 units if the vehicle has multiple occupants.

                Also - I've never heard a LEO do a traffic stop without calling in the plate.
                The views expressed here are mine and do not reflect the official opinion of my employer or the organization through which the Internet was accessed.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Black Caesar
                  He was inside his vehicle at the time, as was the K-9. Don't know what the dog did or didn't do, but it dosen't take long to walk up to a window and pop someone.

                  Thats why you see police officers get out of their vehicles when people approach. It's hard as heck to access your weapon quickly and effectivley sitting in a car, and impossible to "dodge" at all. Outside the vehicle you have more freedom of movement. The Car gives a very false sense of security.

                  This guy was bushwacked, pure and simple.
                  The car gives a false sense of security. This is absolutely true. The place where I work emphasizes the sense of security in the car and we are supposed to get on the radio, wait for a sluggish dispatcher, and mark out before we get out of the car as a matter of officer safety. We don't have handhelds either.
                  "We appreciate all the hard work you've done, the dedicated hours you have worked, and the lives you have saved. However, since this is your third time being late to work, we are terminating your employment here."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    During my ride-along w/ the State Police, the trooper would call the plate in before he hit the lights. Although he had to wait in his car a couple of times before the plate came back, he stayed back from the vehicle until he was sure that there were no hits. Then he pulled in closer to the vehicle in order to complete the stop.
                    Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mr. Security
                      During my ride-along w/ the State Police, the trooper would call the plate in before he hit the lights. Although he had to wait in his car a couple of times before the plate came back, he stayed back from the vehicle until he was sure that there were no hits. Then he pulled in closer to the vehicle in order to complete the stop.
                      Mr. Security:
                      From my days as a student at the Air Force Air Police academy, enlisted service as Air Force Policeman/Security Policeman/Superintendent through the Sheriff's Academy and Constable, it was drummed into my head and I drummed it to the heads of lower grade, fellow and senior grade NCOs and newer officers and working with others, time is always on your side. Call first, get information, sight who is where and how many, then complete the stop, issue verbal warning, write a ticket warning or citation and apprehend/arrest as warranted.
                      Time is on your side, time is on your side! Always act with caution, always act with caution.
                      Enjoy the day,
                      Bill

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        What a tragedy I, myself am a huge K-9 lover especially in law enforcement. If you've ever worked with a properly trained K-9 you'll know full well what I mean. You can be walking through a shopping centre and all of a sudden a little girl comes frm no where to huge your k-9. He doesn't bite, nor growl. Minutes later you come across a crazed man wanting to kill anyone and everyone with a sword and your k-9 takes him down. When you finish work, you take your k-9 along to the local retirement home for some "pets as therapy" work with the residents. Once again he doesn't bite nor growl, but takes it all in his stride. There is no finer love in law enforcement than working with a K-9.

                        My guess is as others have stated, they were in their patrol vehicle when the shooting took place.

                        For those that are interested, take a look here www.napwda.com, then go to the valour pages. Certainly pulls at a few heart strings.
                        A well trained dog is worth 10 men!

                        I can recall my dog, but I can never recall a fired bullet!

                        Would you prefer me to use the dog, the Glock, the baton or the O.C. spray? It's your health insurance so you decide. Alternatively there is always the handcuffs, followed by the Police with the court house preceeding rapidly after. Now which service would you like me to utilise

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mr. Security
                          I know police work is dangerous. Still, I have a difficult time accepting that some of these deaths couldn't have been prevented. Here are the incidents I am referring to:

                          - Bullet misses the vest because of a gap in the side, near the shoulder, or just below the collarbone.
                          It'd be nice if vests covered more of the body, but they must allow for freedom of movement. In addition, the officer could just as easily be shot in the head since officers generally don't wear helmets.

                          Originally posted by Mr. Security
                          - Car accidents where officers are speeding to an emergency
                          Can't always predict when a citizen might run a redlight and/or fail to notice emergency lights/sirens.

                          Originally posted by Mr. Security
                          - Accidental shootings, even by firearm INSTRUCTORS at a training range
                          Now something like this is just unacceptable.

                          Originally posted by Mr. Security
                          - Traffic stops where back up isn't automatically sent unless called off by the officer making the stop. Also, instances where a plate is not called in before initiating the stop.
                          Number of officers involved in a traffic stop is based upon a ton of different factors. Location, number of occupants, violations observed, etc. Back-up is not going to be "automatically sent" unless the initiating officer requests it. Not calling in your location and the plate is a very poor safety habit, but I've seen officers do it when the radio is busy with other stuff going on or in small towns where the officers aren't too worried about being shot.

                          I still don't agree with it, though. Just as someone else said, time is always on your side. Better to be safe than sorry.

                          Originally posted by Mr. Security
                          - Executing felony warrants when the suspect is in his/her home instead of waiting for the person to be in a safe area out in the open.
                          Most warrants are going to be served by a SWAT team or an otherwise large entry team of officers. Usually, surveillance is conducted upon a target home before a warrant is served, and the officers involved will usually study floor plans, etc. I don't know what you might mean by a "safe area out in the open," but in a situation like that, you're going to have a lot more variables and the potential for innocent bystanders to be involved than if the subject was confined in an enclosed area (being his home).

                          When you have armored SWAT officers throwing distraction devices through your windows and entering from every door, subjects usually don't have time to arm themselves before being taken down...

                          In addition, you have the opportunity to search the home and gather evidence.

                          Just my two cents.

                          Originally posted by Mr. Security
                          Obviously, not all situations are cut and dry. Nevertheless, IMO, the death toll is higher than need be.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LPGuy

                            Can't always predict when a citizen might run a redlight and/or fail to notice emergency lights/sirens.
                            Actually, the accidents usually are the result of excessive speed on the part of the responding officer in foul weather or on curvy narrow roads. Many officers are also in their early twenties and lack the driving experience that can only come over time. Driving at a speed where loss of control is likely isn't going to help anyone because you probably won't get there anyhow. In fact, more emergency assets must now be deployed/diverted to help the officer who crashed.
                            Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Mr. Security
                              Actually, the accidents usually are the result of excessive speed on the part of the responding officer in foul weather or on curvy narrow roads.
                              Is this based on statistics? Or just assumptions? I'm not disputing the fact that officers occasionally get into a accidents when going code, but the statement that it's "usually" a mistake on their part.

                              Originally posted by Mr. Security
                              Many officers are also in their early twenties and lack the driving experience that can only come over time.
                              Again, this is an assumption on your part. I don't know of very many officers "in their early twenties" (in fact, many local police departments in my area prefer candidates in their mid- to late-20s). Irregardless of age, all officers go through EVOC training while in the police academy, which in my opinion, makes them better drivers that most everyone else out on the road. Most citizens don't gain driving experience "over time" that prepares them to drive in excess of the speed limit and perform vehicle pursuits.

                              I would guess that the majority of officer-caused accidents are not caused by lack of driving experience, as you suggest, but instead based upon the number of things an officer is trying to do while driving code. Case in point: An officer friend of mine was involved in a nighttime vehicle pursuit while it was snowing on the highway. With his left hand, the officer was trying to use his spotlight to read the vehicle's plate, and with his right hand, he was holding his radio mic and trying to read it off to dispatch. It then dawned on him that he was driving 90 MPH and holding the steering wheel with his knee.

                              He decided to wait on the plate and just focus on getting the vehicle stopped after that.
                              Last edited by LPGuy; 11-12-2006, 04:16 PM.

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