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What Would You Do? - #3

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    If you are licensed under Florida Statute 493 as a "licensed security officer," then no, you can't. Generally, it only applies while "in performance of duties," however... Someone made a case that "my husband hit me, which is in violation of that statute, take his licenses away." The guy wasn't on duty, wasn't even employed in the field at the time. He still lost every license.

    As to "where I'm from," I moved up here from Florida. I am conversant in Florida Law, and deal with a lot of Florida Law issues as a VP of NAPSOA Incorporated.

    Leave a comment:


  • bigshotceo
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    (In Florida)
    Security officers may not use force to protect property.
    Wow. Seems kind of against basic property right to me. Does that mean that if I were a citizen of Florida if someone tries to known down my mailbox I couldn't stop him? Or is someone tries to walk off with my TV I can't physically try to get the TV back?

    Leave a comment:


  • Lawson
    replied
    Fortunately in Washington, we are technically an "open carry" state. So ideally anyone can carry openly, however, the way the laws interpret this, it is basically given that you may not open carry if a reasonable person would be caused fear or intimidation.

    Basically, any security guard can pack around a gun just like a cop can. If you are in a full security uniform and everything looks good to go, you'll be fine for the most part. However; you do have to be careful as something as simple as resting your forearm on your weapon can be considered intimidating.

    Leave a comment:


  • WISecurityGuy
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    Where I come from, that vehicle would be impounded and you'd be charged with impersonating a police officer, based on the vehicle's appearance.

    And, yes, it would of been "wrong" to do what you did.

    That said, its also illegal to walk into a 7-11 with a gun on if you're an armed security officer, because you're not "in performance of duties."

    That said, most police departments say, "Use discresion in enforcing this law, as it is part of Florida Administrative Code."

    Corbier, where exactly are you from? I see Wisconsin, but you talk alot about Florida law as well. There are many security companies in WI that have unmarked squad cars. At least in WI, it is not against the law to have an unmarked squad car. If your lights and siren was on while driving on city streets, then, and I know numerous people who this has happened to, they can be arrested for impersonating.

    Also, as stated in another thread, my company does a lot of alarm response as well as transports. We have an in-house at one specific gas station where our guards go to all the time. Being private property, the owner can allow (not necessarily on paper either) that our guards carry their weapons on their property. It is obviously never concealed.

    The laws have all gone down hill here because of the alarm response policy. Our guards dont necessarily need permission anymore either to carry our weapons on private property because of this new ordinance. All of our guards that respond to burglar alarms are armed. We walk up to peoples houses, business and properties all day without necessarily having their approval/permission.

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by VertigoODO
    Yes in most states that vehicle would be illegal. However in this vehicle it is not. #2 In the state of california you have the right, while on duty and on lunch, to carry your firearm on you. In fact lets take it to the next level, the law states while in transit to your job or after your shift you are authorized by law to wear that weapon while in transit.

    So, here in California its is not illegal to walk into a 7/11 with a gun on your belt. Regardless if your in the performance of your duties or not, as long as your, "on duty" or on the way to your work place. Now a couple of months ago SDSO tried to arrest a security guard for having an unmarked car, it was not only thrown out, but the department settled out of court. The reason is that the vehicle code states under what conditions a vehicle has to be marked. So under Florida law, it is wrong. Under California law it is 100% legal. Thanks for the information about florida though, its nice to know more about there laws.
    Fear Florida Laws. Fear them greatly. If you want to do business in Florida, your website has to have a Florida B number on it. Anything you hand out or could be construed as advertising has to have a B number on it.

    Security officers may not use force to protect property, nor may they have any rotating/flashing light on their car other than Amber. I'm waiting for someone to make a case for takedown lights or alley lights. Seriously.

    There's a bunch more, its quite fun. Hell, under the state laws, your entire website would be evidence of "impersonating official authority," which a security officer may not do. Not "impersonating law enforcement," but "impersonating official authority." Using the words "law enforcement" anywhere on your ad material or anywhere else... felony.

    Very strange state.

    Leave a comment:


  • VertigoODO
    replied
    Originally posted by Arff312
    Here in California if you are on duty you are not required to take off your weapon when you go to eat or get food on duty. As a matter of fact i know people who have gone to the post office and DMV in uniform and not had a problem. Not saying i would. But as far as the food circumstance i work patrol and often stop to get food on my route. It would actually be worse to take your gun off cuz now the suspect sees a holster but no gun and wants to know what you did with it. He isnt going to believe its in the car. So now you pissed him off and have increased your chances of being killed.

    LOL, Thanks Arff312 didnt see your post, thanks for explaining.

    Leave a comment:


  • VertigoODO
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    Where I come from, that vehicle would be impounded and you'd be charged with impersonating a police officer, based on the vehicle's appearance.

    And, yes, it would of been "wrong" to do what you did.

    That said, its also illegal to walk into a 7-11 with a gun on if you're an armed security officer, because you're not "in performance of duties."

    That said, most police departments say, "Use discresion in enforcing this law, as it is part of Florida Administrative Code."
    Yes in most states that vehicle would be illegal. However in this vehicle it is not. #2 In the state of california you have the right, while on duty and on lunch, to carry your firearm on you. In fact lets take it to the next level, the law states while in transit to your job or after your shift you are authorized by law to wear that weapon while in transit.

    So, here in California its is not illegal to walk into a 7/11 with a gun on your belt. Regardless if your in the performance of your duties or not, as long as your, "on duty" or on the way to your work place. Now a couple of months ago SDSO tried to arrest a security guard for having an unmarked car, it was not only thrown out, but the department settled out of court. The reason is that the vehicle code states under what conditions a vehicle has to be marked. So under Florida law, it is wrong. Under California law it is 100% legal. Thanks for the information about florida though, its nice to know more about there laws.

    Leave a comment:


  • HotelSecurity
    replied
    Originally posted by kingsman
    Here in Michigan, I travel from home to work in uniform and with my gun on my hip. I have a CCW and it isn't a problem.
    It's really strange how the attitutes are different between our 2 countries. All of our Security Officers except armoured car people work unarmed yet the only ones I read about getting shot are the armed ones

    Leave a comment:


  • kingsman
    replied
    Here in Michigan, I travel from home to work in uniform and with my gun on my hip. I have a CCW and it isn't a problem.

    Leave a comment:


  • Special Investigator
    replied
    Originally posted by kingsman
    ... I am going to comply with their orders.
    Originally posted by Mr. Security
    More often than not, those who cooperate live to see the sun rise again. Now, it I were alone in a parking lot, and the gunman told me to get on my knees or stomach, I would either fight or flee, but I'm not going to make it easy for him to just execute me.
    Originally posted by VertigoODO
    Well, do what they say, give them what they want, lay down, do whatever they ask. I carry two wallets as well, one retirement and one with $20.00 in it with my ID's. If they said lay down and then started shooting hostages, well then I would act.


    While you must assess each situation on its own, in general, my advice would be don't get on the floor. In too many armed robberies, victims face down on the floor are more likely to be shot in the back as the robbers leave the building.

    But the real problem in the 2nd scenario is not just being ordered to the ground, it is the fact that one of the gunmen already fired his gun, showing a willingness to use deadly force.

    When your life is on the line, you must be willing to use lethal force.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arff312
    replied
    Wow im glad i dont live in florida it seems they have restrictions on everything for guards there. But then again very state has its good and bad.

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by Arff312
    While that maybe true. When you are on vehicle patrols fueling your vehicle is prefroming duties. And if you are eating lunch but still subject to ccalls i would consider that on duty also. But maybe its just that the police have more important things then to hem up a security officer eating lunch.
    Florida considers that if you are not on your property, guarding persons or property, (or more recently travelling between two properties) you are not performing duties.

    Keep in mind, during the 1990s, if you were wearing your gun between posts on a patrol account, you were violating the law. Period, felony 3 posession of a firearm.

    The intrepretation now includes being armed while patrolling, but only while moving from post to post. Stopping off is a violation of law, as its not part of your job duties. Your job, specifically, is to guard things. And only guard things.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arff312
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    These statements have been addressed before, and the Division of Licensing notes that the law... is the law. You may not have your weapon on unless performing duties, and getting food or gassing your vehicle is not "performing duties."

    Keep in mind, this is the same state that criminalizes using force to protect property if you are a licensed security officer. Anyone else may.
    While that maybe true. When you are on vehicle patrols fueling your vehicle is prefroming duties. And if you are eating lunch but still subject to ccalls i would consider that on duty also. But maybe its just that the police have more important things then to hem up a security officer eating lunch.

    Leave a comment:


  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by Arff312
    Here in California if you are on duty you are not required to take off your weapon when you go to eat or get food on duty. As a matter of fact i know people who have gone to the post office and DMV in uniform and not had a problem. Not saying i would. But as far as the food circumstance i work patrol and often stop to get food on my route. It would actually be worse to take your gun off cuz now the suspect sees a holster but no gun and wants to know what you did with it. He isnt going to believe its in the car. So now you pissed him off and have increased your chances of being killed.
    These statements have been addressed before, and the Division of Licensing notes that the law... is the law. You may not have your weapon on unless performing duties, and getting food or gassing your vehicle is not "performing duties."

    Keep in mind, this is the same state that criminalizes using force to protect property if you are a licensed security officer. Anyone else may.

    Leave a comment:


  • Arff312
    replied
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    Where I come from, that vehicle would be impounded and you'd be charged with impersonating a police officer, based on the vehicle's appearance.

    And, yes, it would of been "wrong" to do what you did.

    That said, its also illegal to walk into a 7-11 with a gun on if you're an armed security officer, because you're not "in performance of duties."

    That said, most police departments say, "Use discresion in enforcing this law, as it is part of Florida Administrative Code."

    Here in California if you are on duty you are not required to take off your weapon when you go to eat or get food on duty. As a matter of fact i know people who have gone to the post office and DMV in uniform and not had a problem. Not saying i would. But as far as the food circumstance i work patrol and often stop to get food on my route. It would actually be worse to take your gun off cuz now the suspect sees a holster but no gun and wants to know what you did with it. He isnt going to believe its in the car. So now you pissed him off and have increased your chances of being killed.

    Leave a comment:

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