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What Would You Do? - #3

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  • #16
    Two words, drive-thru.
    Some Kind of Commando Leader

    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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    • #17
      Part 2

      Same situation but with a different twist......


      One of the gunman fires a shot into the ceiling and tells the patrons to get on the floor face down. He says they don't want to hurt anyone, they just want your money.


      Now you have to make a critical decision that could mean the difference betweem life & death. If all they want is your money, are you inclined to give it to them and be a good witness?

      Would you get on the floor?

      In one of these scenarios, you have a higher probably of being hurt or killed.
      "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

      ~~George Orwell.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Black Caesar
        In Texas Security has no statutary duty to act beyond certain "Good Samaritan" stuff . Lots of places call their security "Courtesy Officers" because if they called them security, and people expect security, and something happens, they're screwed.
        I'm not going to disagree completely, but that requirement is listed in Occupations Code 1702.108
        http://tlo2.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes...tm#1702.108.00

        ยง 1702.108. GUARD COMPANY. A person acts as a guard
        company for the purposes of this chapter if the person employs an
        individual described by Section 1702.323(d) or engages in the
        business of or undertakes to provide a private watchman, guard, or
        street patrol service on a contractual basis for another person to:
        (1) prevent entry, larceny, vandalism, abuse, fire, or
        trespass on private property;
        (2) prevent, observe, or detect unauthorized activity
        on private property;
        (3) control, regulate, or direct the movement of the
        public, whether by vehicle or otherwise, only to the extent and for
        the time directly and specifically required to ensure the
        protection of property;
        (4) protect an individual from bodily harm including
        through the use of a personal protection officer; or
        (5) perform a function similar to a function listed in
        this section.

        Number 4 includes the clause about protecting people. There is nothing there, however, that makes a requirement to take personal action, as in deadly force or personal endangerment. Being a good witness may be the most prudent thing to do, as you would be the primary witness in a situation like this.

        Lots of places also call their security "courtesy officers" because they are not properly licensed security personnel. There is still a big uphill battle in getting businesses to comply with the private security act.
        Last edited by 1stWatch; 11-06-2006, 11:02 PM. Reason: Additional Content
        "We appreciate all the hard work you've done, the dedicated hours you have worked, and the lives you have saved. However, since this is your third time being late to work, we are terminating your employment here."

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Special Investigator
          Part 2

          Same situation but with a different twist......


          One of the gunman fires a shot into the ceiling and tells the patrons to get on the floor face down. He says they don't want to hurt anyone, they just want your money.


          Now you have to make a critical decision that could mean the difference betweem life & death. If all they want is your money, are you inclined to give it to them and be a good witness?

          Would you get on the floor?

          In one of these scenarios, you have a higher probably of being hurt or killed.
          Yes, as long as there are several customers included. An example is a bank robbery. More often than not, those who cooperate live to see the sun rise again. Now, it I were alone in a parking lot, and the gunman told me to get on my knees or stomach, I would either fight or flee, but I'm not going to make it easy for him to just execute me.
          Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

          Comment


          • #20
            Number one, I don't usually go to restauraunts in uniform. (though I did while working Katrina)

            Number two, My authority as a security officer is limited to the site I work, not out on the town. Thus any action I take in the restaraunt would be as a private citizen.

            Number three, if I am carrying concealed, not in uniform, I am going to comply with their orders. I am not going to pull the gun and order them to drop their guns. I will be a good witness.

            Number four, if things start going south, if it looks like they are going to start shooting people or if they start beating people, all bets are off. I will not go down as a sheep. I will defend myself and others.

            Comment


            • #21
              This question is not specific there are many variables.

              As a ex-cop working security, this is what I would do, and have allmost done.

              If they came in with guns, very casual and without much movement I would take my gun out of the holster and into my lap where it is concealed. If the robbers approached towards me, I would shoot first then ask questions. Now I know alot of you are thinking, "COWBOY", NOT!!!! First thing to remember is that when people see a badge they dont think, "wait let me look to see what his patch says to see if he's security." No, they assume your a cop!!! This same scenario happened here, they walked up to the guard and shot him in the head, took his gun out of his holster, took the money and left. If I am going to die, I want a fighting chance. I go to the range once a month to keep up on my skills as well. This is what I would do in BOTH situations.

              Now assuming I am in plain clothes, and have my weapon Concealed. Well, do what they say, give them what they want, lay down, do whatever they ask. I carry two wallets as well, one retirement and one with $20.00 in it with my ID's. If they said lay down and then started shooting hostages, well then I would act.

              Bottom Line: We could monday morning quarter back this all day long, you never know unless your in that situation.

              True Story: My partner and I were both in Mission Valley, San Diego, CA and were hungry. The property management knows and approves that we leave property for 30mins a night. We drove in our company patrol car, a 2002 white unmarked Ford Crown Victoria Police interceptor, loaded with SmartSiren, Troy Console, Panasonic PDRC Computer, Cage, Prisioner backseat, federal signal arrow stick in back window, Two SML-2F Lights in rear window, two spot lights, push bumper, ect ect ect, meaning it looked EXACTLY like an unmarked crusier. We parked directly in front of the front doors to 7/11 and went inside. We said hello to our favorite clerk and headed to the back of the store, where we discussed what frozen dinner we would buy. All of the sudden we here in a loud yell, "Gimme the ****ing cash, right now, do it or I'll blow your ****ing head off. We laughed thinking someone is playing a joke, and peaked around from the back of the store, only to see two men armed with shotguns pointing it at the clerk. We drew out our weapons and approached and Identified ourselves. One man turned his head and said oh ****. Both men then put down there guns. After an interview of both they confessed to doing this before in the LA Area and shooting several clerks to intimidate them. In this situation were we right or wrong. The DA and all police officers including the SGT said we were right, the Lt. from the police force said we were wrong.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by VertigoODO
                This question is not specific there are many variables.

                As a ex-cop working security, this is what I would do, and have allmost done.

                If they came in with guns, very casual and without much movement I would take my gun out of the holster and into my lap where it is concealed. If the robbers approached towards me, I would shoot first then ask questions. Now I know alot of you are thinking, "COWBOY", NOT!!!! First thing to remember is that when people see a badge they dont think, "wait let me look to see what his patch says to see if he's security." No, they assume your a cop!!! This same scenario happened here, they walked up to the guard and shot him in the head, took his gun out of his holster, took the money and left. If I am going to die, I want a fighting chance. I go to the range once a month to keep up on my skills as well. This is what I would do in BOTH situations.

                Now assuming I am in plain clothes, and have my weapon Concealed. Well, do what they say, give them what they want, lay down, do whatever they ask. I carry two wallets as well, one retirement and one with $20.00 in it with my ID's. If they said lay down and then started shooting hostages, well then I would act.

                Bottom Line: We could monday morning quarter back this all day long, you never know unless your in that situation.

                True Story: My partner and I were both in Mission Valley, San Diego, CA and were hungry. The property management knows and approves that we leave property for 30mins a night. We drove in our company patrol car, a 2002 white unmarked Ford Crown Victoria Police interceptor, loaded with SmartSiren, Troy Console, Panasonic PDRC Computer, Cage, Prisioner backseat, federal signal arrow stick in back window, Two SML-2F Lights in rear window, two spot lights, push bumper, ect ect ect, meaning it looked EXACTLY like an unmarked crusier. We parked directly in front of the front doors to 7/11 and went inside. We said hello to our favorite clerk and headed to the back of the store, where we discussed what frozen dinner we would buy. All of the sudden we here in a loud yell, "Gimme the ****ing cash, right now, do it or I'll blow your ****ing head off. We laughed thinking someone is playing a joke, and peaked around from the back of the store, only to see two men armed with shotguns pointing it at the clerk. We drew out our weapons and approached and Identified ourselves. One man turned his head and said oh ****. Both men then put down there guns. After an interview of both they confessed to doing this before in the LA Area and shooting several clerks to intimidate them. In this situation were we right or wrong. The DA and all police officers including the SGT said we were right, the Lt. from the police force said we were wrong.
                Where I come from, that vehicle would be impounded and you'd be charged with impersonating a police officer, based on the vehicle's appearance.

                And, yes, it would of been "wrong" to do what you did.

                That said, its also illegal to walk into a 7-11 with a gun on if you're an armed security officer, because you're not "in performance of duties."

                That said, most police departments say, "Use discresion in enforcing this law, as it is part of Florida Administrative Code."
                Some Kind of Commando Leader

                "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                  Where I come from, that vehicle would be impounded and you'd be charged with impersonating a police officer, based on the vehicle's appearance.

                  And, yes, it would of been "wrong" to do what you did.

                  That said, its also illegal to walk into a 7-11 with a gun on if you're an armed security officer, because you're not "in performance of duties."

                  That said, most police departments say, "Use discresion in enforcing this law, as it is part of Florida Administrative Code."

                  Here in California if you are on duty you are not required to take off your weapon when you go to eat or get food on duty. As a matter of fact i know people who have gone to the post office and DMV in uniform and not had a problem. Not saying i would. But as far as the food circumstance i work patrol and often stop to get food on my route. It would actually be worse to take your gun off cuz now the suspect sees a holster but no gun and wants to know what you did with it. He isnt going to believe its in the car. So now you pissed him off and have increased your chances of being killed.
                  Robert
                  Here endith the lesson

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Arff312
                    Here in California if you are on duty you are not required to take off your weapon when you go to eat or get food on duty. As a matter of fact i know people who have gone to the post office and DMV in uniform and not had a problem. Not saying i would. But as far as the food circumstance i work patrol and often stop to get food on my route. It would actually be worse to take your gun off cuz now the suspect sees a holster but no gun and wants to know what you did with it. He isnt going to believe its in the car. So now you pissed him off and have increased your chances of being killed.
                    These statements have been addressed before, and the Division of Licensing notes that the law... is the law. You may not have your weapon on unless performing duties, and getting food or gassing your vehicle is not "performing duties."

                    Keep in mind, this is the same state that criminalizes using force to protect property if you are a licensed security officer. Anyone else may.
                    Some Kind of Commando Leader

                    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                      These statements have been addressed before, and the Division of Licensing notes that the law... is the law. You may not have your weapon on unless performing duties, and getting food or gassing your vehicle is not "performing duties."

                      Keep in mind, this is the same state that criminalizes using force to protect property if you are a licensed security officer. Anyone else may.
                      While that maybe true. When you are on vehicle patrols fueling your vehicle is prefroming duties. And if you are eating lunch but still subject to ccalls i would consider that on duty also. But maybe its just that the police have more important things then to hem up a security officer eating lunch.
                      Robert
                      Here endith the lesson

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Arff312
                        While that maybe true. When you are on vehicle patrols fueling your vehicle is prefroming duties. And if you are eating lunch but still subject to ccalls i would consider that on duty also. But maybe its just that the police have more important things then to hem up a security officer eating lunch.
                        Florida considers that if you are not on your property, guarding persons or property, (or more recently travelling between two properties) you are not performing duties.

                        Keep in mind, during the 1990s, if you were wearing your gun between posts on a patrol account, you were violating the law. Period, felony 3 posession of a firearm.

                        The intrepretation now includes being armed while patrolling, but only while moving from post to post. Stopping off is a violation of law, as its not part of your job duties. Your job, specifically, is to guard things. And only guard things.
                        Some Kind of Commando Leader

                        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Wow im glad i dont live in florida it seems they have restrictions on everything for guards there. But then again very state has its good and bad.
                          Robert
                          Here endith the lesson

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by kingsman
                            ... I am going to comply with their orders.
                            Originally posted by Mr. Security
                            More often than not, those who cooperate live to see the sun rise again. Now, it I were alone in a parking lot, and the gunman told me to get on my knees or stomach, I would either fight or flee, but I'm not going to make it easy for him to just execute me.
                            Originally posted by VertigoODO
                            Well, do what they say, give them what they want, lay down, do whatever they ask. I carry two wallets as well, one retirement and one with $20.00 in it with my ID's. If they said lay down and then started shooting hostages, well then I would act.


                            While you must assess each situation on its own, in general, my advice would be don't get on the floor. In too many armed robberies, victims face down on the floor are more likely to be shot in the back as the robbers leave the building.

                            But the real problem in the 2nd scenario is not just being ordered to the ground, it is the fact that one of the gunmen already fired his gun, showing a willingness to use deadly force.

                            When your life is on the line, you must be willing to use lethal force.
                            "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

                            ~~George Orwell.

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                            • #29
                              Here in Michigan, I travel from home to work in uniform and with my gun on my hip. I have a CCW and it isn't a problem.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by kingsman
                                Here in Michigan, I travel from home to work in uniform and with my gun on my hip. I have a CCW and it isn't a problem.
                                It's really strange how the attitutes are different between our 2 countries. All of our Security Officers except armoured car people work unarmed yet the only ones I read about getting shot are the armed ones
                                I enforce rules and regulations, not laws.
                                Security Officers. The 1st First Responders.

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