What Would You Do? - #3

[Special Investigator]

What Would You Do?


You and a friend/partner are having lunch in a neigbhorhood resturant, when 2 gunman walk in and brazenly announce, "This is a holdup!" You are armed.

The gunman tell the patrons to put their hands up in the air, and to do exactly what they are told, hand over their valuables and money, and no one will get hurt.


Q. What would you do?


This is part 1 of 2

[EMTGuard]

I work contract security. I can't afford valuables. What are they gonna get? My bank card? I just went $500 over drawn this week and had to transfer money from savings to cover the shortage in my checking. What the hell am I doing in a resturant anyway? Is my buddy picking up the bill? I hope so. If my ole lady catches me spending dollars in a resturant when we could have been eating at home for half the amount I'll have more to fear than a couple of lunitics with guns. I can hear her now. "You couldn't pay the sewer bill last month but you can afford to go out to resturants with your friends all the time?" Aaaawwww hell no. I'd just stand up and ask the closest guy to shoot me.

[HotelSecurity]

I work contract security. I can't afford valuables. What are they gonna get? My bank card? I just went $500 over drawn this week and had to transfer money from savings to cover the shortage in my checking. What the hell am I doing in a resturant anyway? Is my buddy picking up the bill? I hope so. If my ole lady catches me spending dollars in a resturant when we could have been eating at home for half the amount I'll have more to fear than a couple of lunitics with guns. I can hear her now. "You couldn't pay the sewer bill last month but you can afford to go out to resturants with your friends all the time?" Aaaawwww hell no. I'd just stand up and ask the closest guy to shoot me.

Written like a true married man . My symapthies. (27 years of loved bliss for me - Thank goodness for shift work )

[N. A. Corbier]

Not an issue for me. I'm not a sworn law enforcement officer, I would not be armed in Wisconsin.

[Mall Director]

Again.. its deadly actions or attempts by another.. take cover, call it in, and hope you can do a two for one shot.. if not, its gonna get interesting!

[Guest]

What Would You Do?


You and a friend/partner are having lunch in a neigbhorhood resturant, when 2 gunman walk in and brazenly announce, "This is a holdup!" You are armed.

The gunman tell the patrons to put their hands up in the air, and to do exactly what they are told, hand over their valuables and money, and no one will get hurt.


Q. What would you do?


This is part 1 of 2

I know this has already been asked, but what is up with these questions? Why are you fascinated with deadly force?

Since I assume your scenarios involve armed security guards in uniform, my answer is simple. The function of a security guard is observing violations and report them to the proper authorities, not take any enforcement actions themselves. They should only resort to deadly force if THEIR life is in jeopardy. In your above scenario, the lives of the security guards are not in imminent jeopardy, so deadly force should not be used at that point.

[HotelSecurity]

The function of a security guard is observing violations and report them to the proper authorities,

This is not what I am required to do on my job. If a guest of my hotel or an employee was being attacked & I just observed & reported I'd be fired. This is your opinion of what security guards should do. You sound like our Doctors did here in Montreal up until just very recently. 'ONLY Doctors can preform medical acts, we won't accept Paramedics'. Guess what, Paramedics CAN preform medical acts just as Security Officers CAN be proactive. But I keep forgetting you are not a security guard you are a POLICE OFFICER LOL

[Rooney]

I would try to keep a calm head and observe. If the perps were very nervous and figity I may react with force BUT, only at a time that either they were pointing the guns away from patrons or a patron tried to take them on and cause a worsening scenario. In my CCW classes we go over scenarios like this quite a bit. Deadly force should only be used to protect yourself or others in a dire situation. A "hold up" is not a dire situation unless it gets out of hand. Which can happen if you react too quickly. I suggest give them whatever and observe as much as possible.

[N. A. Corbier]

I know this has already been asked, but what is up with these questions? Why are you fascinated with deadly force?

Since I assume your scenarios involve armed security guards in uniform, my answer is simple. The function of a security guard is observing violations and report them to the proper authorities, not take any enforcement actions themselves. They should only resort to deadly force if THEIR life is in jeopardy. In your above scenario, the lives of the security guards are not in imminent jeopardy, so deadly force should not be used at that point.

Actually, some states specifically state that security personnel are there to protect people, as well as property. To not take enforcement action when faced with a deadly force situation towards someone you have a legal duty to protect will land you in various worlds of badness. Everything from tort claims to criminal negligence claims.

[Black Caesar]

Actually, some states specifically state that security personnel are there to protect people, as well as property. To not take enforcement action when faced with a deadly force situation towards someone you have a legal duty to protect will land you in various worlds of badness. Everything from tort claims to criminal negligence claims.

In Texas Security has no statutary duty to act beyond certain "Good Samaritan" stuff . Lots of places call their security "Courtesy Officers" because if they called them security, and people expect security, and something happens, they're screwed.

With no specific law saying security must act, you get all kinds of opinion here.

When I took the security commision course through Wackenhut, the instructor (a Wackenhut Major) pounded the mantra "Observe and Report" into us. "That weapon is there for YOUR protection, it dosen't make you a Law Enforcement Officer" is what he'd say every day during the week long class.

He'd also remind us the a LEO in Texas can point a weaopn at someone to gain compliance/affect an arrest ( when the situation dosen't warrant deadly force), but nobody else can. An S/o or other private citizen pointing a gun at someone when the situation isn't even close to requiring deadly force is Assault (but if you can articulate that you were in fear of you life, pointing a weapon at someone to keep them from using deadly force against you is ok).

But the message about why you were armed and what you could do was very different at other (IMO less professional) . One manager at a small company my brother worked at said "you ARE there to protect and serve, just like the cops". These were the types companies that people who really wanted protection turned to.

[Black Caesar]

What Would You Do?


You and a friend/partner are having lunch in a neigbhorhood resturant, when 2 gunman walk in and brazenly announce, "This is a holdup!" You are armed.

The gunman tell the patrons to put their hands up in the air, and to do exactly what they are told, hand over their valuables and money, and no one will get hurt.


Q. What would you do?


This is part 1 of 2

Oh and the answer to this question is : Be a good witness.

Do as they say unless and until the take some action the requires you to act (or it becomes likely that they will discover you are armed). This is the reason I carry a wallet AND a seperate badge holder for my badge, so that if need be I can hand over my wallet without fear of them discovering that I'm a police officer.

If it starts to get out of hand, fall back on your training and hope for the best is all I can think of.

[N. A. Corbier]

A legal duty can be created contractually, as well as statutorially. This is where people get into trouble. If the general public reasonably expects protection due to the advertisement of it, or the actions of the security personnel or client, then a legal duty and increased standard of care can exist.

Wackenhut and other large guard services companies take pains, great pains, to ensure that no contractual obligation to provide anything more than a person in a uniform exists. Once that line is crossed, the guard services provider has a legal duty, transferred onto the employee, to protect someone or something.

Florida Case Law is full of it going both ways. If the guard services company eliminated liability, then no legal duty existed to protect people. If the guard services company, the individual security officer, or the client created a reasonable expectation of security or protection... Then the legal duty exists (contractual duty is a legal duty) and the security officer is legally bound to act, or he opens himself to censure by the Division of Licensing (Loss of License, 2000 dollar fine, misdemeanor charge), and in the case of a lethal encounter, tort claims of unwrongful death as well as criminal negligence charges form the state for failing to perform the legal duty.

There is a large body of case law that legal contracts create a legal duty. Keep in mind, this "legal duty" is contractual, not statutory.

As far as pointing a gun at someone, in Florida, a LEO may not threaten someone with deadly force (pointing a gun at them) unless there is a deadly force threat present. Florida LEOs derive their defense of self or other authority from the same statute that citizens do.

[ACP01]

Something to think about here is if your are in uniform you WILL have a gun pointed at you. The BGs will take you as a threat (If THEIR heads are in the game) and if you are armed and just raise your hands then you can expect your weapon to be taken.

Just the fact that you are on site even if it is just to eat will not make a differance in the way thay look at you..you are an armed threat to them.

In fact all they may see is the uniform and react, perhaps violently.

If you are plain clothes then the ballgame is differant. As long as they do not see that you are armed then you can wait to see what happens. If it gets violent then you can act.

[DizZy SO]

"Waiter/waitress we'll take this to go."

[ACP01]

"Waiter/waitress we'll take this to go."

And could you make it quick?