What Would You Do? - #2

[Mall Director]

As with #1, again, not armed... but..

Again, not armed, but in the event I was placed into the situation, I would assume that due to range, it didnt matter what I did, I will leave their in best case scenerio with injuries. So, that being said, armed subject down first, then knife subject next, if possible. Gunshots do have a tendancy to cause people to "jamm up" or freeze for a second, hopefully giving enough time to re-aquire second target and neutralizing.

[Charger]

Another tactic being taught is move laterally as you draw if possible to put the BGs in line thus you are only dealing with one at a time . (move so the gunman is in front of the knife welder).

This does two things..it puts an obstacle between you and the knife and it also keeps the gunman in view. If you were to move towards the knifer then the gunman could draw and shoot around or thru the knifeman.

Moving straight forward or backwards doesn't take you out of the line of attack as well as lateral movement does.

Good point! That drill that I mentioned in the earlier post was taught to us in that way. We were trained not to back straight up, but outward at (approximately) a 45 degree angle... This was also touched on as a key training point when I received my OC Instructor cert... Moving straight backwards isn't going to take you out of harm's way if you're facing someone with a gun, or someone who's already charging at you...

[ACP01]

Another tactic being taught is move laterally as you draw if possible to put the BGs in line thus you are only dealing with one at a time . (move so the gunman is in front of the knife welder).

This does two things..it puts an obstacle between you and the knife and it also keeps the gunman in view. If you were to move towards the knifer then the gunman could draw and shoot around or thru the knifeman.

Moving straight forward or backwards doesn't take you out of the line of attack as well as lateral movement does.

[Charger]

I would probably agree that the knife wielder is the greater threat if you're at close range. But as N.A. said, you have to be prepared to deal with both. Like I said, I'd be drawing and retreating at the same time. If I can create a big enough gap, I've taken the threat of the knife at least temporarily out of the equation.

So I guess in response to your initial question:

"Who do you shoot first?"

Answer would be: The one who just cut me.

[Special Investigator]

Here is what I was taught.....

It would depend on a number of factors, but generally, you should shoot the guy with the knife first.

Why, you ask? Two reasons....

1. First it takes only 1-1/2 seconds to close a 20 foot gap. Thats faster than most folks can draw, aim and fire a handgun. So unless your prepared, your probably going to get cut.

Multipule knife wounds are more likely to hit a major artery and cause serious injury or death. After all, only 1-in-10 people die from a bullet wound.

2. The second reason is that psychologically, a knife wielding attacker is more blood thirsty and his silent knife makes it more likely that he will be the one who will attack first.


Any comments on my answer?

[N. A. Corbier]

Bridgegate hit it. 20 feet is too close, seek cover (from the handgun, as it can go through concealment that the knife can't) and engage either target that begins to use lethal force against you.

[Charger]

Inside of 21 Feet a knife is considered a deadly force authorized situation. I would draw my weapon and order them to drop their weapon. If the situation remains the same and the knife weilding assialant approaches shoot him first, if the gun guy reaches for it and starts to draw shoot him. There are way too many variables in this question.

Arff pretty much nailed my response on this. 20 feet is too close for this situation. My instincts would be to draw my weapon and start issuing orders, as I'm backing away to try & gain some ground. If possible, maybe look around for some cover/concealment in case the other guy draws. But if the first guy already has his knife out, he can easily cover the 20 feet between us before my gun is firing. Reminds me of the drills during qualifications where we practiced standing 5 feet from a subject with pen & notebook in hand, (taking notes, writing DL info, etc.). Then when the instructor yelled "GUN!", tossing the pen/notepad at subject and drawing while retreating and putting 2 shots center-mass. After running that drill over & over, we got pretty good at drawing while backing up quickly..

[EMTGuard]

Either you have really big pockets, or its time for a man's gun

Bersa Thunder .380. Fits right in my front pants pocket.

[Lawson]

I just hope I remembered to put my pistol in my pocket before leaving the house.

Either you have really big pockets, or its time for a man's gun

[EMTGuard]

I just hope I remembered to put my pistol in my pocket before leaving the house.

[Bill Warnock]

Who knows, but you. That's why I asked. I don't make assumptions. You need to remember that we don't know who you are or what your motives may be. No one is automatically verified when becoming a member and we normally get to know a member by his/her posts over time. We have had our share of imposters here, so we are a little weary when a new member starts asking questions like yours.

Mr. Security, I agree with that
Before asking us for solutions, recommend you first ask those in law enforcement in your jurisdiction. They will point out the law and all of its requirements.
If you work for a security company, what do you operating procedures require for the use of deadly force. If it is not spelled out, ask your leadership, and, in your opinion, the answers are convoluted or nebulous then you are on shaky grounds.
As suggested by Mr. Security, verbal commands spoken with authority is the first rule. Make the windows rattle.
If you sense anything out of the ordinary and are armed, remove your your sidearm and hold it slightly behind your strong side with your index finger on the frame of the sidearm, never on the trigger, that is an extreme emergency challenge posture.
If they approach you after you have put them on notice, raise the weapon and assume a modified "Weaver" position.
The person with the drawn knife is the most dangerous of the two.
As a school question, how do you know the second subject has a firearm in his belt area? If you can discern that, you are too close to draw your sidearm because if the subject with the knife is within 21-feet of you, you have 3 tenths of a second to draw the sidearm, acquire a sight picture and squeeze of a round.
Don't do anything dumb, go through the chain of command if you are employed. If you freelance, talk to your local law enforcement agency.
If we are talking about henhouse protection, I want to know the information provided does not aid the fox.
Follow Mr. Security's sage advice, think it out and seek professional assistance.
Enjoy the day,
Bill

[Mr. Security]

I'll check it out. Welcome.

[Special Investigator]

We have had our share of imposters here, so we are a little weary when a new member starts asking questions like yours.

Understandable. I've interduced myself in the "Introductions and Welcomes" forum if you'd like to know more about myself.

http://forums.securityinfowatch.com/showthread.php?t=1784

[Mr. Security]

For discussion, what else? Being new here, I'd thought I'd post something intelligent and constructive.

I've posted this subject on other boards and have gotten some wild answers. I'd like to see how others would answer this scenario.

Who knows, but you. That's why I asked. I don't make assumptions. You need to remember that we don't know who you are or what your motives may be. No one is automatically verified when becoming a member and we normally get to know a member by his/her posts over time. We have had our share of imposters here, so we are a little weary when a new member starts asking questions like yours.

[Special Investigator]

BTW: Why are you asking these questions?

For discussion, what else? Being new here, I'd thought I'd post something intelligent and constructive.

I've posted this subject on other boards and have gotten some wild answers. I'd like to see how others would answer this scenario.