Justified response level

[kingsman]

My partner was sitting in the guard shack last night when two masked men ran up and tried to kick the door in. The booth is approximately, 4 x 8 feet and has windows all the way around. Partner had all the lights out so he could see better with the lights around the perimeter. He had his foot on the door so they didn't get in and they immediately ran off.

They actually broke the latch on the door.

Now, my partner pulled his gun but did not shoot, and by the time I got up there (1 minute) they were gone.

His question was, At what point would he have been justified in using deadly force? Is their attempt to kick in a door where they know an armed officer is located constitute assault? Would he have been justified in shooting thru the door?

[jeff194307]

According to the law in most states, he is justified to use deadly force to protect himself or others from great bodily injury. It would probably not be justified unless the perp's actually gained entrance to the building and would certianly not be justified to shoot through the door. I am only familiar with deadly force laws in California, but I am pretty sure that they are all nearly the same. Of course your statement must show that you had good reason to fear for your safety during this incident.

[Lawson]

Jeff, to me that sounds about right for this area as well. As long as one can articulate that they are in fear for their life or a serious bodily injury, deadly force can be used to defend themselves. Shooting through the door probably would have been a bad idea, but lets say he heard them shouting, "You're f***ing dead!" that may have been a different story.

[bigdog]

Here in florida . he would have been justified to shoot through the door becasue the law says anyone unlawfully attempting to enter or entering a building or conveyance where the builing or car is occupied can assume they are entering to cause great bodily harm or death.SO deadly force is authorized.

[N. A. Corbier]

Mmm, Castle Doctrine.

It boils down to, "Would a reasonable person have another method of defending themselves" and "Would a reasonable person be in fear for their life?"

It doesn't matter if it consitutes "an assault," as that is just "unwanted touching" or in the south, "threat of unwanted touching." What matters is, "Do you think you're going to die if they get in?"

[Mall Director]

As NA states, and for my own preference, I would have called out once with a warning pror to engaging any target. THis way, you have given more than enough ample warning.. Once the door comes down, one warning, and if still advances, well.. its that time!

Tough calls are tricky and never double guess yourself. Your instincts and training, if practiced, will carry you through.. Confidence and making the call are hard, but thats part of the game, in a sense!

[HotelSecurity]

What kind of security do you do again?

[Mall Director]

Who? Me? Well...LOL.. I will say in defense, we do not run armed. I have been to lots of corporate meetings on a national level, and listened to the other directors state "we need firearms".. And I, in no way, am condeming armed security, as it is important, but personally, at my site, I am against it. Thinking about the fact there are just so many people around, and a miss shot could create alot of pain down the road, leaves me leary. On armed sites I worked in the past, I wouldnt chance another obtaining my firearm from me without my consent... LOL, know what I mean. Of course, not knowing what state others may be in, the states I have worked in allow dealy force if necessary, but thats such a difficult trial to go through.. I give my sympathies to armed officers, as the responsibility that goes behind it is large and overwhelming!

Reminds me of a short story.. We had an armed security officer come onto our facility and shop. Mall policy is "no firearms at all, unless LE", well I approached the officer, and made a gentle reminder of such policy. His response was " do I need to check in with you, and get it back from you when I am done?" I about had a heart attack! I repsonded with "No sir, you keep your weapon, as I have no interest at all to obtain it. Just place it in your car until you are done". The thought of me even wandering back to the office with anothers weapon made me sick and freaked. For one, I cant believe the guy even asked me that, and for two, I dont want it! Handing it off to another security personnel from one is not accomplishing anything! LOL! I commend the guy for trying to the right thing, but thats his weapon, not mine, and I dont want to touch it.

[N. A. Corbier]

What kind of security do you do again?

Obviously the kind where masked men kick down the guard shack door, or try to...

[K-9 Aussie]

Two words

FORCE CONTINIUM

Remember the golden rule "the same level of force plus one!"

I realise you guys have different laws, but if you err on the side of caution and restraint I've always found it better when it gets to the court room. What looks like black and white at 3am in the field, looks totally different at 3pm in the courtroom.

[Andy Taylor]

Who? Me? Well...LOL.. I will say in defense, we do not run armed. I have been to lots of corporate meetings on a national level, and listened to the other directors state "we need firearms".. And I, in no way, am condeming armed security, as it is important, but personally, at my site, I am against it. Thinking about the fact there are just so many people around, and a miss shot could create alot of pain down the road, leaves me leary. On armed sites I worked in the past, I wouldnt chance another obtaining my firearm from me without my consent... LOL, know what I mean. Of course, not knowing what state others may be in, the states I have worked in allow dealy force if necessary, but thats such a difficult trial to go through.. I give my sympathies to armed officers, as the responsibility that goes behind it is large and overwhelming!

Reminds me of a short story.. We had an armed security officer come onto our facility and shop. Mall policy is "no firearms at all, unless LE", well I approached the officer, and made a gentle reminder of such policy. His response was " do I need to check in with you, and get it back from you when I am done?" I about had a heart attack! I repsonded with "No sir, you keep your weapon, as I have no interest at all to obtain it. Just place it in your car until you are done". The thought of me even wandering back to the office with anothers weapon made me sick and freaked. For one, I cant believe the guy even asked me that, and for two, I dont want it! Handing it off to another security personnel from one is not accomplishing anything! LOL! I commend the guy for trying to the right thing, but thats his weapon, not mine, and I dont want to touch it.

I have heard that in some states if a property owner forbids firearms on the property they must provide secure storage for said firearms. From a security standpoint I feel less threatened by a firearm on the hip of a uniformed security officer than I do of an unattended firearm in a car in the parking lot. Particularly when people have seen an openly armed individual deposit the firearm in the car, then go into the mall to shop.
That being said, in CA, if the officer's duties did not take him to the mall, it would not have been legal for him to take the gun to the mall. We can go directly to and from the job site armed, unless the officer also has a CCW, in which case the gun must be concealed.
I am curious, if only LE is allowed guns, what about armoured car services? I'm sure they do not disarm to service clients in the mall.

[Lawson]

( A little off topic... I know... )

Is it true that a California issued CCW is only good in the county in which it is issued?

[Charger]

( A little off topic... I know... )

Is it true that a California issued CCW is only good in the county in which it is issued?

Knowing California, it's possible. I know in Oregon a CCW is registered to the specific county you live in, (different counties have different requirements and different fees), but last I heard it was considered valid throughout the state..

California may not make that same allowance..

[T202]

Kingsman,
What caused the badguys to immediatey run off? Did your partner give verbal commands that caused them to run? If they would have continued their attempt to break into the guard shack after knowing there was someone in there, to me that's a "Reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm." Michigan residents no longer have a duty to retreat. Here is a copy of the new law.

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/documents/2005-2006/billintroduced/house/pdf/2005-HIB-5143.pdf#search='michigan%20house%20bill%205143'

[N. A. Corbier]

Who? Me? Well...LOL.. I will say in defense, we do not run armed. I have been to lots of corporate meetings on a national level, and listened to the other directors state "we need firearms".. And I, in no way, am condeming armed security, as it is important, but personally, at my site, I am against it. Thinking about the fact there are just so many people around, and a miss shot could create alot of pain down the road, leaves me leary. On armed sites I worked in the past, I wouldnt chance another obtaining my firearm from me without my consent... LOL, know what I mean. Of course, not knowing what state others may be in, the states I have worked in allow dealy force if necessary, but thats such a difficult trial to go through.. I give my sympathies to armed officers, as the responsibility that goes behind it is large and overwhelming!

Reminds me of a short story.. We had an armed security officer come onto our facility and shop. Mall policy is "no firearms at all, unless LE", well I approached the officer, and made a gentle reminder of such policy. His response was " do I need to check in with you, and get it back from you when I am done?" I about had a heart attack! I repsonded with "No sir, you keep your weapon, as I have no interest at all to obtain it. Just place it in your car until you are done". The thought of me even wandering back to the office with anothers weapon made me sick and freaked. For one, I cant believe the guy even asked me that, and for two, I dont want it! Handing it off to another security personnel from one is not accomplishing anything! LOL! I commend the guy for trying to the right thing, but thats his weapon, not mine, and I dont want to touch it.

You're lucky that Colorado has no firearms regulations for security. In regulated states, if you had accepted the gun, you would of been an unarmed officer with a firearm, a violation.

Oh the fun the law can make us play.