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  • When the job gets cryptic and a lot of "maybes".

    "Start a topic, we'll continue it there. However, strangely enough... Your being sub-contracted to another company? That's interesting. It sounds like someone else got toe bid for that block of ATMs, and they can't handle it, so they just hired who does all the ATMs.

    Who's saying, btw, you can't carry OC and impact? The company, or NCR? The company can make all the rules they want, but there's no law prohibiting you from carrying those items, any private citizen may. It may be a violation of company policy, but if its not written policy, then nobody was adequately informed.

    It sounds like the armored car mentality. You don't need anything but a gun (No speedloaders, either), because all your going to do is shoot anything that gets in your way."

    - N.A. Corbier

    Yep, I bet that?s it. We have the means and the people but they don?t. And they are a major security company compared to us, go figure. As for OC. Well, the boss has said he nether condones or denies the use of OC or impact. He just feels that it?s up to the user to make sure they know the liabilities in using it. And I am pretty sure its not written policy. If your not trained or have proof that you are proficient with it I guess it can open you up for liability. The clients could care less about what we carry. As long as it?s not costing them extra. But as you say, citizens carry all kinds of stuff with them these days even those with out a concealed weapons permit let alone any kind of training. I just stopped all together for the moment till I get a better feeling of all this stuff that?s started to surface. But the ASP and the OC is in the car just in case. I have carried a stun gun before, but thought against it because it?s a contact weapon and I hate to get it taken away from me and used on myself. But the job seems to be getting stagnated now, again as much as I love it. It's getting those little ear marks that make your spidey sense tingle.
    My views, opinions and statements are my own. They are not of my company, affiliates or coworkers.

    -Being bagger at Publix has more respect these days

    -It's just a job kid deal with it

    -The industry needs to do one of two things; stop fiddling with the thin line and go forward or go back to that way it was. A flashlight in one hand and your set of keys in the other

  • #2
    Originally posted by Echos13
    "Start a topic, we'll continue it there. However, strangely enough... Your being sub-contracted to another company? That's interesting. It sounds like someone else got toe bid for that block of ATMs, and they can't handle it, so they just hired who does all the ATMs.

    Who's saying, btw, you can't carry OC and impact? The company, or NCR? The company can make all the rules they want, but there's no law prohibiting you from carrying those items, any private citizen may. It may be a violation of company policy, but if its not written policy, then nobody was adequately informed.

    It sounds like the armored car mentality. You don't need anything but a gun (No speedloaders, either), because all your going to do is shoot anything that gets in your way."

    - N.A. Corbier

    Yep, I bet that?s it. We have the means and the people but they don?t. And they are a major security company compared to us, go figure. As for OC. Well, the boss has said he nether condones or denies the use of OC or impact. He just feels that it?s up to the user to make sure they know the liabilities in using it. And I am pretty sure its not written policy. If your not trained or have proof that you are proficient with it I guess it can open you up for liability. The clients could care less about what we carry. As long as it?s not costing them extra. But as you say, citizens carry all kinds of stuff with them these days even those with out a concealed weapons permit let alone any kind of training. I just stopped all together for the moment till I get a better feeling of all this stuff that?s started to surface. But the ASP and the OC is in the car just in case. I have carried a stun gun before, but thought against it because it?s a contact weapon and I hate to get it taken away from me and used on myself. But the job seems to be getting stagnated now, again as much as I love it. It's getting those little ear marks that make your spidey sense tingle.
    Here's the thing about ASP and OC in Florida. You don't need to be certified in its use, because your not a law enforcement officer who has to justify his level of force in controling a suspect in a court of law. A LEO has the authority to use force FIRST, whereas we use force reactively. Someone does something illegal, we use force to terminate that action. It can be interference with property, attacking us or another, or refusing to leave.

    Since your held to the same standard as a private citizen, and not a sworn LEO, you can carry those items without certification. You can deploy your ASP to defend yourself from violent attack, so long as you can articulate that you deployed a deadly weapon to protect yourself from the attack because you felt, at the time, other method would not stop the attack.

    The ASP is considered a "billy," or "club," and is a deadly weapon if you hit in the head, and a weapon (ag. batt.) if you hit below the neck. Since your always afraid for your life when someone attacks you, you are justified in using the ASP to defend yourself as you were under violent attack.

    Liability is a watch word, yes, but ALOT of Florida and other companies love to use it to scare their employees into submission. Things I've Heard:
    "If you carry that, you'll be arrested, only the police can."
    "Your not allowed to use those things unless someone has a gun."
    "Guns and sticks and pepper spray are soely for visual intimidation. They should be empty." (That was from the owner of a warm body security company)

    See the trend? If you have it in the car, the State considers you armed with it. Since the state dosen't regulate being armed with it, they don't really care. In a court of law, it will be brought up that you had lesser methods of force available, in your vehicle, and you refused to carry them or deploy them, you merely shot the bad guy.
    Some Kind of Commando Leader

    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
      Here's the thing about ASP and OC in Florida. You don't need to be certified in its use, because your not a law enforcement officer who has to justify his level of force in controling a suspect in a court of law. A LEO has the authority to use force FIRST, whereas we use force reactively. Someone does something illegal, we use force to terminate that action. It can be interference with property, attacking us or another, or refusing to leave.

      Since your held to the same standard as a private citizen, and not a sworn LEO, you can carry those items without certification. You can deploy your ASP to defend yourself from violent attack, so long as you can articulate that you deployed a deadly weapon to protect yourself from the attack because you felt, at the time, other method would not stop the attack.

      The ASP is considered a "billy," or "club," and is a deadly weapon if you hit in the head, and a weapon (ag. batt.) if you hit below the neck. Since your always afraid for your life when someone attacks you, you are justified in using the ASP to defend yourself as you were under violent attack.

      Liability is a watch word, yes, but ALOT of Florida and other companies love to use it to scare their employees into submission. Things I've Heard:
      "If you carry that, you'll be arrested, only the police can."
      "Your not allowed to use those things unless someone has a gun."
      "Guns and sticks and pepper spray are soely for visual intimidation. They should be empty." (That was from the owner of a warm body security company)

      See the trend? If you have it in the car, the State considers you armed with it. Since the state dosen't regulate being armed with it, they don't really care. In a court of law, it will be brought up that you had lesser methods of force available, in your vehicle, and you refused to carry them or deploy them, you merely shot the bad guy.
      Ah, yes. That! Trend, indeed! Everything you have said a lot of us have discussed together. Including the techs, they want us to carry shotguns according to some of them. In fact one of them's sister is a retired deputy and he's as pro -use what ever you can to get the bad guy- person. Well, we are trained in shotgun but so far it's a no go on that one all the way around the table. I guess it's going to take an incident to prove that tools are needed. Most of the techs, they are a bunch of cool people. They fully appreciate us %100. And for good reason. As for their bosses and mine, well like you said. Trends.
      My views, opinions and statements are my own. They are not of my company, affiliates or coworkers.

      -Being bagger at Publix has more respect these days

      -It's just a job kid deal with it

      -The industry needs to do one of two things; stop fiddling with the thin line and go forward or go back to that way it was. A flashlight in one hand and your set of keys in the other

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
        Here's the thing about ASP and OC in Florida. You don't need to be certified in its use, because your not a law enforcement officer who has to justify his level of force in controling a suspect in a court of law. A LEO has the authority to use force FIRST, whereas we use force reactively. Someone does something illegal, we use force to terminate that action. It can be interference with property, attacking us or another, or refusing to leave.

        Since your held to the same standard as a private citizen, and not a sworn LEO, you can carry those items without certification. You can deploy your ASP to defend yourself from violent attack, so long as you can articulate that you deployed a deadly weapon to protect yourself from the attack because you felt, at the time, other method would not stop the attack.

        The ASP is considered a "billy," or "club," and is a deadly weapon if you hit in the head, and a weapon (ag. batt.) if you hit below the neck. Since your always afraid for your life when someone attacks you, you are justified in using the ASP to defend yourself as you were under violent attack.

        Liability is a watch word, yes, but ALOT of Florida and other companies love to use it to scare their employees into submission. Things I've Heard:
        "If you carry that, you'll be arrested, only the police can."
        "Your not allowed to use those things unless someone has a gun."
        "Guns and sticks and pepper spray are soely for visual intimidation. They should be empty." (That was from the owner of a warm body security company)

        See the trend? If you have it in the car, the State considers you armed with it. Since the state dosen't regulate being armed with it, they don't really care. In a court of law, it will be brought up that you had lesser methods of force available, in your vehicle, and you refused to carry them or deploy them, you merely shot the bad guy.
        n.a. corbier when Iwent to s2 for my baton cert. we were told the asp is a non deadly force option. also that we could use it if spray is ineffective. i was trained to use it as a non deadly
        "Get yourself a shovel cause your in deep Sh*t"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by bigdog
          n.a. corbier when Iwent to s2 for my baton cert. we were told the asp is a non deadly force option. also that we could use it if spray is ineffective. i was trained to use it as a non deadly
          The State of Florida considers the ASP Baton no different than a baseball bat, tire iron, or other weapon. Consult the Aggarvated Assault and Aggarvated Battery statutes for their stance on weapons. A baseball bat is considered a dangerous or deadly weapon.

          Armorment Systems and Procedures (ASP) instructs that at no time may a baton operator strike above the neck, as doing so would cause great bodily injury or death. The perfered action is to drop the baton and transition to a deadly force option (firearm/knife).

          CASCO Baton Systems instructs that their CASCO baton may be used as a deadly force weapon by aiming for the head with a power strike, when deadly force is required and there is no time to transition to traditional firearms or knives.

          Monadnock seems to teach that its bad to hit, but it happens, and if you need to use deadly force, power stroke to the head, groin, and kidney area. (The Monadnock Color Chart)

          Also recongize that you were Monadnock trained on an ASP baton. Call up ASP in Wisconsin, and ask them if ASP will provide liability defense for you, having been certified by a Monadnock, and not an ASP, instructor.

          Its little details like this that make all the difference in the world.

          Also, don't forget, if your having to spray someone, and that fails, and they're continuing to attack you, you are in fear for your life from their attack, and lethal force is justified when a reasonable person is in fear for their life.
          Last edited by N. A. Corbier; 11-21-2005, 05:42 AM.
          Some Kind of Commando Leader

          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

          Comment


          • #6
            Good Post N. A. Corbier

            Other areas considered to be ?red zones? are joints as a strike there is likely to cause serious injury.

            One should also understand that (s)he is not expected to exhaust all lesser forms of force when immediately confronted with a deadly force scenario. Generally speaking, the force continuum allows us to use a degree of force one level higher than what is presented by the suspect. However, an exception might be a situation where you are plainly out numbered and there is no escape route. 10 unarmed people can ruin your day

            No one says it has to be a fair fight.
            I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
            -Lieutenant Commander Data
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            • #7
              Originally posted by Tennsix
              Other areas considered to be ?red zones? are joints as a strike there is likely to cause serious injury.

              One should also understand that (s)he is not expected to exhaust all lesser forms of force when immediately confronted with a deadly force scenario. Generally speaking, the force continuum allows us to use a degree of force one level higher than what is presented by the suspect. However, an exception might be a situation where you are plainly out numbered and there is no escape route. 10 unarmed people can ruin your day

              No one says it has to be a fair fight.
              I've always thought that if you have baton in hand, and it suddenly becomes a deadly force situation, take a swing at the bad person's head - if you don't kill them, you'll seriously screw their day up and give you time to go to plan B.
              Some Kind of Commando Leader

              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

              Comment


              • #8
                Think about the zones for impact weapons...green, yellow, and red. When feces hits the fan, and you're throwing down with some sack face do you really think you can land all your blows in the green? One impact hit to the head, neck, chest, can make your life a living hell. The basic idea is to go home at the end of your shift, but I have always been taught that impact is deadly force, or at least right under it. If I can find the use of force matrix we use I'll post it.

                Our company is sneaky with those unwritten vs. written policies. In Washington you can carry batons, OC, guns, etc. with the proper certification. Our company allows, technically, a flashlight, radio, and gun. They ditched the OC after we had already went through the training, the company is afraid of the liability of restraints and "false arrest."

                My goal is to go home safe though.
                Last edited by jakeslife; 03-01-2006, 11:20 AM.
                Liability is never above officer safety. Do what you must to make sure you go home safe.

                William-2, 10-6 for 105. Yep, I'm at Starbucks!

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                • #9
                  That's why I'm not Monadnock certified. We didn't have "green, yellow, and red" zones in ASP training. We had "Don't hit people above the shoulders" and "This is the Triangle."
                  Some Kind of Commando Leader

                  "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jakeslife
                    Think about the zones for impact weapons...green, yellow, and red. When feces hits the fan, and you're throwing down with some sack face do you really think you can land all your blows in the green? One impact hit to the head, neck, chest, can make your life a living hell. The basic idea is to go home at the end of your shift, but I have always been taught that impact is deadly force, or at least right under it. If I can find the use of force matrix we use I'll post it.

                    Our company is sneaky with those unwritten vs. written policies. In Washington you can carry batons, OC, guns, etc. with the proper certification. Our company allows, technically, a flashlight, radio, and gun. They ditched the OC after we had already went through the training, the company is afraid of the liability of restraints and "false arrest."

                    My goal is to go home safe though.
                    You carry a gun, a radio, and a flashlight? Holy crap.

                    Companies that deploy lethal force without any less-lethals, on the first shoot, are done. Unfortunately, so is the person deploying deadly force.

                    Why, you may ask? Because you have three levels of force.

                    1) Physical Presence
                    2) Verbal Commands
                    3) Deadly Force

                    Some might argue that there are four available, the third being "empty-hand strikes," but with nothing but a gun on, you endure massive liability attempting to fight someone "to the death" while having nothing but a gun on. You cannot restrain them, you cannot control them, and you cannot defend against them without doing incapacitating damage - anything less will fail as you have no means to end the encounter by restraint.

                    "Your honor, my client was beaten to a pulp! The defendant says he was in fear for his life, but he had a gun on! Its obvious that he had no intention of restraining my client, he dosen't even carry handcuffs! He maliciously beat my client, over and over again, until my client couldn't move!"
                    Some Kind of Commando Leader

                    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I understand what you are saying but don't over look empy hand techniques. That degree of force is recognized on the continuum(sp). A weapon is not always carried on the belt.
                      Last edited by Tennsix; 03-01-2006, 08:59 PM.
                      I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
                      -Lieutenant Commander Data
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