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  • Crystal Meth:- It's effects and methods to control

    Hi

    In N.S.W. Australia only Police and Sheriffs are allowed to carry and use O.C. sprays. I'm trying to put together a solid case to present to the N.S.W. Commissioner of Police to have this law overturned, with a sucessful outcome being that it will be made a legal weapon for security officers.

    Crystal Meth (I.C.E.) has become a large scale problem in Australia.

    I would really appreciate some international help here, and if you could "copy and paste" the below questions and fill them in for me that would be greatly appreciated.

    The following questions are:-

    1.) In your experience have you found the quickest, safest (for the public, offender and yourself) and most professional method of dealing with a person who appears to be under the influence of crystal meth and is extremely violent using a form of chemical control i.e. O.C. spray?
    2.) If your answer for question 1 was "yes", what in your professional opinion is the best form of legal chemical control to use dealing with those under the influence of crystal meth?
    3.) What are the effects of this chemical control agent when used?
    4.) Are there any long term side effects of using the chemical control agent you have recommended
    5.) Are there any negatives to using the chemical contol agent you have recommended in an operational capacity i.e it has a short used by date, or might lose its strength if left in direct sunlight etc?
    6.) Is there a medical treatment if the chemical control agent you have recommended is used on an offender? If so what is it?
    7.) What distance do you need to be in relation to the offender to be abe to use it safely and effectively?
    8.) Are there any other methods that you have found that work on a violent person under the influence of crystal meth, apart from batons, firearms or electrical discharge weapons?
    9.) Do you find that when trying to apprehend or control an offender who is under the influence of crystal meth that they have huge amounts of strength and can often take several people to assist in subduing them if a non leathal weapon is not used?
    10.) Is there any other usefull information you wish to add?



    I thank you for your valuable time and help in regards to this mater. All comments will be respected and taken into consideration.

    Kindest regards
    A well trained dog is worth 10 men!

    I can recall my dog, but I can never recall a fired bullet!

    Would you prefer me to use the dog, the Glock, the baton or the O.C. spray? It's your health insurance so you decide. Alternatively there is always the handcuffs, followed by the Police with the court house preceeding rapidly after. Now which service would you like me to utilise

  • #2
    Dear sir, You should check into the "Equipment + Gear" section of these forums. I did a massive work up on different chemical agents, and the effects. Its listed on the thread labelled "OC Review". It may help you with the questions you are looking for answers on.

    As for the meth user, and chemical effects, we have sprayed six this year, and I can say the results of them are similiar to that of an intoxicated subject. Normal person will respond to OC within about 5 seconds or less. Double the time for best case scenerio on a meth user. Even then, we have had half the success on those accounts where the effects did not make an immediate reaction. The struggle was still impressive, but the burn did help control. Using OC with a blinding or coating action is best, as if the burn doesnt work, the mess that coats the eyes and face will help in the subject not seeing.

    On a subject who is under direct effects of a recent use of a narcotic, such as meth, the burn really doesnt appear to set in. The pain receptors are not functioning correctly, which would normally cause the signal from the skin to the brain, that would let them know they are hurting. Subjects on a narcotic just dont respond the same as that of a subject not under the influence.

    My best advice, which we have used.. Multiple officers, Foam (as it covers the eyes) in heavy doses, and then responding immediately to getting the situation under control..safely.
    Deputy Sheriff

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by K-9 Aussie
      Hi

      In N.S.W. Australia only Police and Sheriffs are allowed to carry and use O.C. sprays. I'm trying to put together a solid case to present to the N.S.W. Commissioner of Police to have this law overturned, with a sucessful outcome being that it will be made a legal weapon for security officers.

      Crystal Meth (I.C.E.) has become a large scale problem in Australia.

      I would really appreciate some international help here, and if you could "copy and paste" the below questions and fill them in for me that would be greatly appreciated.

      The following questions are:-

      1.) In your experience have you found the quickest, safest (for the public, offender and yourself) and most professional method of dealing with a person who appears to be under the influence of crystal meth and is extremely violent using a form of chemical control i.e. O.C. spray?
      As described in my earlier post
      2.) If your answer for question 1 was "yes", what in your professional opinion is the best form of legal chemical control to use dealing with those under the influence of crystal meth?
      OC is good, but even a OC/CS/CN combo will have the same effects regardless
      3.) What are the effects of this chemical control agent when used?
      No immediate response. Unless blinded. Typically they start walking and staggering in circles and falling over stuff, as they can not see.
      4.) Are there any long term side effects of using the chemical control agent you have recommended
      OC: No. Absolutely none. Its 100% safe. Brands such as Def-Tech and Sabre Red are all food grade material. No solvents, no chemicals.
      5.) Are there any negatives to using the chemical contol agent you have recommended in an operational capacity i.e it has a short used by date, or might lose its strength if left in direct sunlight etc?
      Never lay OC on the dash of your car, it may go off with heat. Dont leave it in the car during the winter, it does freeze. Typical MK4 model sizes have a 4 year shelf life of warentee. MK9 has 2 year. Nitrogen filled OC containers have a sealer in them to prevent leaks, and last without being used, for a very very long time. Shake it once a month to make sure its all mixed.
      6.) Is there a medical treatment if the chemical control agent you have recommended is used on an offender? If so what is it?
      As in the OC Review thread, and certified training.. remove from contaminated are, air and water. Thats it. Nothing else can be done, nor needs to be.
      7.) What distance do you need to be in relation to the offender to be abe to use it safely and effectively?Minimum distance of MK4 models, 33 inches. MK9 models, 6 feet. I highly suggest not allowing them within 5-7 feet as you spray. then back off and let it do its thing.
      8.) Are there any other methods that you have found that work on a violent person under the influence of crystal meth, apart from batons, firearms or electrical discharge weapons?
      Nope. Other than terminating them completely, no. Meth is a horrid narcotic, and scares me something feirce. People on it are very dangerous. I would not use a baton, as you are too close to them in order to strike, and they wont feel it immediately if you do.
      9.) Do you find that when trying to apprehend or control an offender who is under the influence of crystal meth that they have huge amounts of strength and can often take several people to assist in subduing them if a non leathal weapon is not used?
      Yes. They have alot of strenght, in that they do not tire easily. Sometimes they can definately lift items we normally could not. I had a subject pick up a lawnmower in the garden section, and wave it above his head liek it was nothing. Interestingly: They will struggle hard, but wont break a sweat until much later. They have very delayed physical reactions.
      10.) Is there any other usefull information you wish to add?
      If you have to spray them, do so at a safe distance. Use the blinding compositions I listed earlier. Back off, let the subject feel from it before apprehending. Once they do, get help, and get it controlled.



      I thank you for your valuable time and help in regards to this mater. All comments will be respected and taken into consideration.

      Kindest regards
      Hope thats more to what you were wanting. I hate meth with a passion. Its disgusting, dangerous, and only 6% of meth addicts ever recover fully from using. The stuff is like a death wish.
      Deputy Sheriff

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Mall Director
        On a subject who is under direct effects of a recent use of a narcotic, such as meth, the burn really doesnt appear to set in.
        Meth is a central nervous system stimulant. Narcotics are opiates such as heroin.

        Comment


        • #5
          Indeed, Meth is a stimulant. That's why its called "speed."
          Some Kind of Commando Leader

          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mall Director
            Dear sir, You should check into the "Equipment + Gear" section of these forums. I did a massive work up on different chemical agents, and the effects. Its listed on the thread labelled "OC Review". It may help you with the questions you are looking for answers on.

            As for the meth user, and chemical effects, we have sprayed six this year, and I can say the results of them are similiar to that of an intoxicated subject. Normal person will respond to OC within about 5 seconds or less. Double the time for best case scenerio on a meth user. Even then, we have had half the success on those accounts where the effects did not make an immediate reaction. The struggle was still impressive, but the burn did help control. Using OC with a blinding or coating action is best, as if the burn doesnt work, the mess that coats the eyes and face will help in the subject not seeing.

            On a subject who is under direct effects of a recent use of a narcotic, such as meth, the burn really doesnt appear to set in. The pain receptors are not functioning correctly, which would normally cause the signal from the skin to the brain, that would let them know they are hurting. Subjects on a narcotic just dont respond the same as that of a subject not under the influence.

            My best advice, which we have used.. Multiple officers, Foam (as it covers the eyes) in heavy doses, and then responding immediately to getting the situation under control..safely.


            Thanks Mall Director I already printed your review off the other day and gave a copy to work mates to read. It was an excellent report and congratulations on it.


            The main reason for my push for the reviews of our law is due to an incident I had several nights ago. A male approx 5'7"- 5'9" and weighing around 180lb for no reason assaulted a patron where I was working and K.O'd the patron in one hit, causing the patron extensive facial damage. I'm 6'5"-6'6" and weigh in around 220lb-400lb. It took 6 males including myself to get this guy on the ground. The baton did nothing at all and I must have hit him 3 dozen times in the knee/thigh areas on both legs. When I did get him down I tried to get his left hand behind his back and used a mandible pressure point hold on him to convince him to coperate, and I mean I put 120% force into it and actually cut him deeply with my fingernail but he didn't bat an eyelid at it. He felt nothing at all. After what seemed an eternity on the ground trying to get the cuffs on this clown I finally did, with the Police arriving shorty after. I removed my cuffs on the request of the Police. I told the Police to re-cuff him as he had to be on something like "ice" as he has super strenght but they didn't worry. Sure enough at the Police Station he played up terribly assaulting 3 Police, then claimed he was having a heart attack and was rushed to hospital where he assaulted nurses.

            I train exceptionally hard daily in PPCT as I want to become an instructor, but no mater what I tried on this guy it just didn't work, he simply didn't feel it. Now after reading your comments, it explains why he didn't feel a single thing.

            So due to this incident and other drug and serious assault incidents I've decided to push as hard as I can for a review and I'm after as much info as I can get hold of that will help me in my battle.

            Thanks once again.
            A well trained dog is worth 10 men!

            I can recall my dog, but I can never recall a fired bullet!

            Would you prefer me to use the dog, the Glock, the baton or the O.C. spray? It's your health insurance so you decide. Alternatively there is always the handcuffs, followed by the Police with the court house preceeding rapidly after. Now which service would you like me to utilise

            Comment


            • #7
              Click the link in my signature that says SPE Police Tactical or whatnot. The SPE one. There's quite a bit of defensive tactics instruction there, its a forum by a Florida sheriff's deputy who believes that officers should have more instruction than just what the police academy gives.

              Its not Ninja Magic, just solid instruction + a lot of discussion about keeping yourself alive and dominating your opponents in hand-to-hand combat while keeping the force continium so you survive that pesky legal battle.

              Also, the baton won't work on some people. What do you do then? Joint mechanics, lock ups, pain compliance, ground fighting...
              Some Kind of Commando Leader

              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

              Comment


              • #8
                Meth.

                We are awaiting the full impact of this drug in our area. The western and Midwest states have been hammered and it's moving eastward.

                Drugs tend to have cycles. Marijuana, heroine in the 60's and 70's, crack cocaine in the 80's, etc. I expect the same to occur with meth. We will have to wait and see what the next plague is. It could be the improper use of prescription drugs. As the world continues to experience turmoil, people will turn to drugs to cope or as an escape, temporary though it may be.
                Security: Freedom from fear; danger; safe; a feeling of well-being. (Webster's)

                Comment


                • #9
                  In my review..

                  I definately a big fan of OC. But I am also very conscience about protecting your "keester" afterwards in the event of a civil suit. I have learned what products to be concerned about, what products offer excellent coverage in so many different levels, as well as the actual effectiveness of OC. As I was taught, and as well as what I have experienced, OC is not 100% effective on all subjects. But it is a tool you can add to your arsonal of defense. Better to have, then have not.

                  Meth itself, is quite the thing in my region, and even my state. Its rechid, horrible, nasty, and in the back of my mind, after all that I have been through in seeing its effects, long term and short term, is a terminal desease of the human being. There is no reasoning with it, no helping it, and no recovery. People on this stuff are not humans any more, just statistics. I know I sound cold and callice about it, but as you have just expereinced, it is what it appears to be. I hate the stuff with a passion. Every time we bring a subject into our control facility that are under the effects, all I can think about is that in a year or so, this person will be no longer suffering, but dead. Its sad, and of course dangerous.

                  My first "physical" encounter was with a 100lb male subject, who decided to have a physical altercation with a clothing rack in one of our stores. He stated the clothing rack was calling him names, and decided to shut "it" up. Myself, and three of my officers struggled with this subject for what seemed to be forever. Even after gaining control, and PD's arrival, he was still very combative. One PD officer attempted a throat strike, which in his words "I could feel the subjects spine through his throat as I pressed, and he didnt even care or appear effected by the strike". A few minutes later we were helping PD in our parking lot, as the subject kicked out the window in the rear of the patrol car and was attempting escape.

                  Another mether we dealt with was purely strange. We got a call to a shoplifting, where the subject was attacking the clerk. One of my officers who was the first one on scene had looked back at me with a look of confusion, as the subject was bouncing around in the isles with three new tennis shoes, waiving them around like nunchucks, and making horrid noises. I waived my hand and signalled to my officer to just go ahead and spray him, as it was appearant he was dangerous and acting abnormal. The subject went blind of course, but continued to bounce around like tigger the tiger. He had a moment of clarity where he just dropped to the ground and extended his arms as to give up. We started to place the hand restraints on the subject when the clarity went away, and he became violent again. Once we restrained his hands, his feet were all over kicking us and shelves. Placing leg irons and cross hatching through the hand restraints, he still tried to be combative, by making biting actions towards us. Once we took him to the control facility, we just placed him on the floor and waited for PD. THey showed up, evaluated the subject and condition, and left him as is, and just put him in the back of their patrol car. That demonstrated to me that they had an understanding of Meth as well, and dealt with it on many occassions.

                  We use safety to the highest level when dealing with these types. Also, watch yourself checking them for weapons, we have had a few that we kind enough to leave their used hypodermic needles bent in their pockets. The upward pocket check has saved us alot of accidental stickings.
                  Deputy Sheriff

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mall Director
                    We use safety to the highest level when dealing with these types. Also, watch yourself checking them for weapons, we have had a few that we kind enough to leave their used hypodermic needles bent in their pockets. The upward pocket check has saved us alot of accidental stickings.


                    With the stupidity of our laws over here, we are not permitted to search an arrested person. We can only search them if they have been arrested for shoplifiting and we are retreaving that item only as evidence.

                    I always ask if "they have anything on them that can be considered a weapon such as a blade, screw driver etc?" They are under no obligation to answer me as they have the "right to remain silent" but they always answer and just about every occassion they have had knives on them and they then give me permission to remove it from them.

                    Ask Ozsecuritychick, most security officers over here don't carry a single piece of protective equipment on them. Sometimes they might carry a maglite and that's it. In my area, I'm one of three guards that actually have, carry and use batons and handcuffs. I'm the only one on the entire far north coast that is trained in PPCT Defensive tactics and spontanious knife defence.

                    N.A.CORBIER:- I've registerd on the SPE site and have sent an email to be verified. I can only sit back and hope that I'm allowed in.

                    I'm actually hoping to go to the U.S. next year as I want to do some of the Surefire courses, Close Quater Defence courses, ASP courses, possibly a Smith and Wesson course and definately a law enforcement mountain biking course through the Internation law enforcement moutain biking association. So all the contacts being built on these forums might come in handy. I really want to become an instructor over here for the above mentioned courses etc.
                    A well trained dog is worth 10 men!

                    I can recall my dog, but I can never recall a fired bullet!

                    Would you prefer me to use the dog, the Glock, the baton or the O.C. spray? It's your health insurance so you decide. Alternatively there is always the handcuffs, followed by the Police with the court house preceeding rapidly after. Now which service would you like me to utilise

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      A note about SPE. You will be denied verification. You have access to everything above the forums marked "Verified," and that's where the DT topics and stuff are.
                      Some Kind of Commando Leader

                      "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I know this may sound lame, but..

                        I hear you on some sites not allowing PPE (Personal protective equipment), but one thing you can get away with carrying, that alot of people overlook, are latex gloves. Please dont touch the nasties without them! We have no idea where they have been, or what they have been into! Another idea!
                        Deputy Sheriff

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Mall Director
                          I hear you on some sites not allowing PPE (Personal protective equipment), but one thing you can get away with carrying, that alot of people overlook, are latex gloves. Please dont touch the nasties without them! We have no idea where they have been, or what they have been into! Another idea!


                          One step ahead of you I always carry not only latex gloves but also my Hatch Friskmaster Supermax gloves on me at all times. I always put the Hatch's on even to apply an arm bar. You're absolutely spot on, you just never know where they've been!

                          Our uniform pants are I think what you people call "BDU pants"? These have the large pockets on the sides of the legs, and often elastic around the cuf of the legs. I keep my Hatch's in one of the pockets on my leg for fast and easy access.

                          I will admit this tho, it really is a pleasure talking to like minded people who take their work and safety seriously. Over here most other guards scoff and snigger yet always walk around dazed with mouths wide open when something goes wrong after they see that because you've trained hard and have the right gear you're going home at the end of your shift in one piece.
                          A well trained dog is worth 10 men!

                          I can recall my dog, but I can never recall a fired bullet!

                          Would you prefer me to use the dog, the Glock, the baton or the O.C. spray? It's your health insurance so you decide. Alternatively there is always the handcuffs, followed by the Police with the court house preceeding rapidly after. Now which service would you like me to utilise

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by histfan71
                            Meth is a central nervous system stimulant. Narcotics are opiates such as heroin.
                            True thats the technical definition but according the legal status amphetamines are considered narcotics. When I had to dispense meds to the disturbed kids the adderall prescription number always started with an "N" for narcotic.

                            And if a cop stops you and says "Do you have any narcotics in the vehicle?" he is really asking if you have any illegal drugs, he isn't just asking for heroin, or opium, or pain pills.

                            Comment

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