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  • #16
    Originally posted by bigdog
    the inflammation of the membranes
    is what stops the perp not the pain
    My point is the percentage effects how long the effect lasts more than how "powerful" it is. I have been subject to many different types of chemical weapons. CS still has my vote. But make no mistake, OC hurts and that is a factor in stopping the suspect.
    I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
    -Lieutenant Commander Data
    sigpic

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    • #17
      I agree with Tennsix, you can't beat CS. A long time ago to break up a demonstration, CN having failed to do the job, it was suggested that smoke be used laced with CS. The demonstrators got a nasty surprise, demonstration over. It was less than lethal force and the good guys were getting the worst of it, bricks, large rocks and so forth.
      Enjoy the day,
      Bill

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Echos13
        Some of us use to carry MK3 OC spray, some others impact weapons (trained and certified). But now we all have been told only our firearms are it. Kind of sucks really. The bosses will not say why. But we are all kind of worried now. Talk has it that one of our clients is considering us to work ATM escort calls unarmed. Get this, to save money! WTH?
        Liability. Your only there to use lethal force to protect the tech. Since they're not having any issues with techs being robbed, you obviously don't need to deploy lethal force.

        I fully expect you to have your weapon replaced with a cell phone, and told to simply be present when the tech arrives. No scouting, etc. This way, they minimize your payable hours to the client.

        It used to be that you were supposed to protect the client's tech from attack or interference. Now, your just there to call 911 and the tech is on his own, after all, your not there to actually protect anybody, but as an insurance requirement for security for techs.
        Some Kind of Commando Leader

        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

        Comment


        • #19
          Funny this should get brought up... I'm actually a certified OC instructor in Oregon...

          Got my instructor's cert from the training Sgt. from a local PD down there, who is nationally recognized for his expertise on OC... because of that, I carry what HE carries....

          Punch II (MKIII)

          Biggest shot of OUCHNESS there is, with the shortest length of effect time... which means, the least amount of liability for the whole 'cruel & unusual punishment' whackos...

          At the time I got the cert, Oregon wasn't requiring the cert for SOs to carry, but were recommending it because they were planning to make it a requirement soon. Since I've been out of the state for a year, that may have changed by now.
          Corbier's Commandos - "Stickin it to the ninjas!"
          Originally posted by ValleyOne
          BANG, next thing you know Bob's your Uncle and this Sgt is seemingly out on his a$$.
          Shoulda called in sick.
          Be safe!

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
            Liability. Your only there to use lethal force to protect the tech. Since they're not having any issues with techs being robbed, you obviously don't need to deploy lethal force.

            I fully expect you to have your weapon replaced with a cell phone, and told to simply be present when the tech arrives. No scouting, etc. This way, they minimize your payable hours to the client.

            It used to be that you were supposed to protect the client's tech from attack or interference. Now, your just there to call 911 and the tech is on his own, after all, your not there to actually protect anybody, but as an insurance requirement for security for techs.
            Robberies and assaults are up in two of the three counties I work. And we just got a big load of new banks on board. Not to mention the dreaded ACMs (check cashing machines) are coming. The techs have already made it clear that they will not work ATM calls with out armed security if it happens. And they pretty much have the company by the balls at the moment because they are very short staffed in four counties. They have other calls they do like retail, commercial and related jobs. Working on routers, data bases and networks. Some of the techs are thinking about their own OC spray and improvised impact weapons of their own. Some have asked us about OC spray and what is the best to carry, etc. Ack, talk about liability now. We have taken cuts in pay before, and other things. In fact, I am the only PPO with a provided vehicle now. I think some of these paper pushers need a dose of OC, or maybe they are sampling it. I wonder. After five years of loyal service and a providing personal efforts for the company. Is this one of those ?writing on the wall? things?
            My views, opinions and statements are my own. They are not of my company, affiliates or coworkers.

            -Being bagger at Publix has more respect these days

            -It's just a job kid deal with it

            -The industry needs to do one of two things; stop fiddling with the thin line and go forward or go back to that way it was. A flashlight in one hand and your set of keys in the other

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Echos13
              Robberies and assaults are up in two of the three counties I work. And we just got a big load of new banks on board. Not to mention the dreaded ACMs (check cashing machines) are coming. The techs have already made it clear that they will not work ATM calls with out armed security if it happens. And they pretty much have the company by the balls at the moment because they are very short staffed in four counties. They have other calls they do like retail, commercial and related jobs. Working on routers, data bases and networks. Some of the techs are thinking about their own OC spray and improvised impact weapons of their own. Some have asked us about OC spray and what is the best to carry, etc. Ack, talk about liability now. We have taken cuts in pay before, and other things. In fact, I am the only PPO with a provided vehicle now. I think some of these paper pushers need a dose of OC, or maybe they are sampling it. I wonder. After five years of loyal service and a providing personal efforts for the company. Is this one of those ?writing on the wall? things?
              How big is your employer? If this is a large market section for them, they're sabotaging themselves. They should be justifying these things to the client, not going "Oh, we're cutting money because you don't want to pay for guns.


              Any idea why the client is cutting back resources like this, if they're noticing trends? Diebold and other ATM makers have specific training and figures for ATM techs, the bank security directors should know ATM tech issues.
              Some Kind of Commando Leader

              "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
                How big is your employer? If this is a large market section for them, they're sabotaging themselves. They should be justifying these things to the client, not going "Oh, we're cutting money because you don't want to pay for guns.


                Any idea why the client is cutting back resources like this, if they're noticing trends? Diebold and other ATM makers have specific training and figures for ATM techs, the bank security directors should know ATM tech issues.
                I guess maybe we should move this to another thread but I guess I started something. The company for the most part is dramatically small. We do investigations and consultations but I have no idea about that part of the company. It?s run in its own entity and seems to be handled by the boss and his associates. But we are very big in having most of the ATM accounts in the area. At least in central Florida at the moment. We just got a load of Washington Mutuals, BOAs and Wachovia accounts to add on to the ones we got now. I lost count at 200 machines. All of us are ether former Leos or military which is what the boss only will hire. Diebold and NCR are our main clients, which so far I deal mostly with NCR and their subsidiary 1st Line Solutions. Most of us are on retainer or salary positions. For the exception of the part timers which are hourly and they make over ten to eleven an hour. What we think is happening is that NCR is letting some paper pusher or middle management run the show. It?s all about numbers. They will not hire any new techs ether, at least CE level ones. I have seen three leave in my five years and they have not replaced one of them. The 1st line people are a bunch of kids that get burnt out in about six months and go someplace else. And a lot of them can?t fix a toaster let alone a net communication ATM or router. As for trends I guess no one has gotten shot or shot someone. And the calls are starting to thin out some. We still have our guns; this talk has been going around for six months now. But no OC, impact weapon or anything else. Well still have my cuffs though. And my transportation is a POS that?s always going into the shop. But what?s strange most of all we have found our selves in the last six months calling in to another security firm. We have to call in our details at the end of the day to their dispatching station. OK, that?s an indicator to me something?s not right. I am told we have been ?subbed? out for certain areas. The boss has been rather cryptic about that. Despite how much I like the job I am thinking about moving on. But most related jobs like this are in another county or they pay no more than standard guard jobs. I am considering getting back into law enforcement but not the street part. I am looking into prevention or information processing like working in the AFIS or crime scene sections.
                My views, opinions and statements are my own. They are not of my company, affiliates or coworkers.

                -Being bagger at Publix has more respect these days

                -It's just a job kid deal with it

                -The industry needs to do one of two things; stop fiddling with the thin line and go forward or go back to that way it was. A flashlight in one hand and your set of keys in the other

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Echos13
                  I guess maybe we should move this to another thread but I guess I started something. The company for the most part is dramatically small. We do investigations and consultations but I have no idea about that part of the company. It?s run in its own entity and seems to be handled by the boss and his associates. But we are very big in having most of the ATM accounts in the area. At least in central Florida at the moment. We just got a load of Washington Mutuals, BOAs and Wachovia accounts to add on to the ones we got now. I lost count at 200 machines. All of us are ether former Leos or military which is what the boss only will hire. Diebold and NCR are our main clients, which so far I deal mostly with NCR and their subsidiary 1st Line Solutions. Most of us are on retainer or salary positions. For the exception of the part timers which are hourly and they make over ten to eleven an hour. What we think is happening is that NCR is letting some paper pusher or middle management run the show. It?s all about numbers. They will not hire any new techs ether, at least CE level ones. I have seen three leave in my five years and they have not replaced one of them. The 1st line people are a bunch of kids that get burnt out in about six months and go someplace else. And a lot of them can?t fix a toaster let alone a net communication ATM or router. As for trends I guess no one has gotten shot or shot someone. And the calls are starting to thin out some. We still have our guns; this talk has been going around for six months now. But no OC, impact weapon or anything else. Well still have my cuffs though. And my transportation is a POS that?s always going into the shop. But what?s strange most of all we have found our selves in the last six months calling in to another security firm. We have to call in our details at the end of the day to their dispatching station. OK, that?s an indicator to me something?s not right. I am told we have been ?subbed? out for certain areas. The boss has been rather cryptic about that. Despite how much I like the job I am thinking about moving on. But most related jobs like this are in another county or they pay no more than standard guard jobs. I am considering getting back into law enforcement but not the street part. I am looking into prevention or information processing like working in the AFIS or crime scene sections.
                  Start a topic, we'll continue it there. However, strangely enough... Your being sub-contracted to another company? That's interesting. It sounds like someone else got toe bid for that block of ATMs, and they can't handle it, so they just hired who does all the ATMs.

                  Who's saying, btw, you can't carry OC and impact? The company, or NCR? The company can make all the rules they want, but there's no law prohibiting you from carrying those items, any private citizen may. It may be a violation of company policy, but if its not written policy, then nobody was adequately informed.

                  It sounds like the armored car mentality. You don't need anything but a gun (No speedloaders, either), because all your going to do is shoot anything that gets in your way.
                  Some Kind of Commando Leader

                  "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    oc spray

                    I was carrying mk4 but my director said it was to big, I am ocat certified in maryland for 2 years. Does anyone know where to order punch oc spray from?

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                    • #25
                      i reccomend sabre
                      "Get yourself a shovel cause your in deep Sh*t"

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                      • #26
                        yea defensivechemicals.com sells it.
                        "Get yourself a shovel cause your in deep Sh*t"

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Froogle

                          You can find Areko products, as well as MSI, Defense Labs, Fox, Pepperball, and Security Products on Froogle.

                          www.froogle.com

                          Just give it the name of the product your after, for example:
                          Punch II
                          Sabre Red
                          Sabre 5.0
                          Mace
                          Takedown

                          etc...
                          Froogle will reply with the stores that if finds in the Google search engine, arranged by price.
                          Some Kind of Commando Leader

                          "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I carry Fox.
                            Liability is never above officer safety. Do what you must to make sure you go home safe.

                            William-2, 10-6 for 105. Yep, I'm at Starbucks!

                            I may be gay, but I'll eff you up!

                            Personal Web Site

                            Cheap, Quality Web Design! Put a great cop on the beat by helping with my tuition! :-D

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                            • #29
                              have you ever had fox fail to subdue a subject?
                              "Get yourself a shovel cause your in deep Sh*t"

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Truthfully, I've never had to use it on a subject. Just the thought of it being used on me scares me doody-less. I was certified with DefTec (1 million SHU), and Fox is 5.3 million SHU.

                                The only time I have ever discharged it was out at a site near some woodlands between 13 coyotes and I. Just a nice little stream that hit near them and they could smell. They ran, and so did I.
                                Liability is never above officer safety. Do what you must to make sure you go home safe.

                                William-2, 10-6 for 105. Yep, I'm at Starbucks!

                                I may be gay, but I'll eff you up!

                                Personal Web Site

                                Cheap, Quality Web Design! Put a great cop on the beat by helping with my tuition! :-D

                                Comment

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