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Some questions about the job

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  • S/O245
    replied
    From being a NRA member i know that in the State of Oklahoma i think the OK State a few companies decided to fire a group of employees for storing un loaded firearms in his/her trunk. I think the law in that states says you can store them in the trunk un loaded. I guess that day big Management decided they would do a search for drugs but this was not why they wanted to do it. They called the local sheriffs dept and deputies and may have been possible even the sheriff came.

    When the Officers arrived to the scene i think the comp wanted them to run lic plates and then once the officers found out why they wanted to search they told them we wont help you. If the officers had helped in the search they could have been in violation of persons rights. So the comp I think forced security officers to help in the search they made employees open up trunks anyone with a firearm was fired. Also it was the first day of deer season. So they know alot of hunters had already hunted or would be going at the end of the day. They fired them and violated the employees rights. I think the group of employees with the NRA then filed a lawsuit against the company. And i also think a law was passed or about to be passed that say no comp is allowed to keep a employee from having it in the trunk. I cant remember if that law already passed or not. I know that the big corps are trying to fight it. One big comp that is suppose to have done the same thing is AOL. I think this one big comp in OK state fired 40 in one day. One of them was about to retire. I dont know if the OK law applies to its S/O's or not.


    Stay Safe All

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    Originally posted by CAR54
    Here's a basic question.

    While taking my exposed weapon training class here in California (security guard) I was told we could ONLY wear the weapon while in uniform and going to or from the site, or to a gun range as long as we're in uniform, and that's it.

    Now the way I understood this was we could NOT wear the weapon if we leave the site to go to lunch, or to run errands on our lunch breaks. But I see armed security guards shopping in 7/11's, banks and diners all the time and they can't all be moonlighting off duty police or working that site.

    If there's no place to leave the weapon on the post and you don't want to leave it in the car how do most armed security officers handle this. What is the general rule here? Will a police officer stop and question an armed security officer if he feels the guard is off site??
    Ok, in most states, this is not a company issue, this is a state authority issue. We'll go with Florida, though I'm sure California has the same idea.

    You are a private citizen, given the extraordinary power of openly carrying a weapon, correct? Wrong. A property owner may designate agents who may carry openly in his steed, on his property. Just as you can walk around your house with a gun on, you may walk around your business with a gun on, you can tell your family and employees to do the same.

    EXCEPT third-party (and uniformed in-house in some states) security personnel. Originally, the state required that you be on your client property for your Class "G" Firearms Permit to work. If you were off your property, you were illegally openly carrying a firearm. If you were on public property, you were illegally openly carrying a firearm. Florida's Division of Licensing, when asked "Why dosen't my CCW work in security?" advised that because you have the awesome responsiblity of protecting others, you must be held to a higher standard (And only allowed to carry up to two .38 special revolvers, or one .38 special revolver and one shotgun if your client sufficiently scares the state.)

    The state has actually stated, at times, that mobile patrol companies must travel with their weapons securely encased, their "G" permit did not apply, when traveling from account to account. They must, then, on property, place the weapon in the holster - or else they're violating the contract stating that armed security employees will be provided. Take it off, leave.

    Police Officers, who are more apt to enforce these sorts of things than Division of Licensing, Bureau of Enforcement Agents (State Inspectors), could really care less if a security person has a weapon trunked or in their holster. The general public, of course, dosen't want that gun anywhere near them, or they don't care either. Walking into 7-11 with a revolver can result in free coffee, or being ordered to leave under threat of arrest by the clerk who is pissed off you get a gun and they don't.

    Having watched a 7-11 clerk throw a security employee out, only to have a state trooper throw a ballistic fit at the clerk for messing with a uniform, I've always found the 7-11 clerk amusing.

    This is less about "The company dosen't want you to carry," but indeed, they don't. Your weapon, company or personal, isn't what gets them in trouble. Its being in a company uniform - the public knows who to sue. You are a representative of the company, and a good lawyer will try to get the company for vicarious liability. Even if you are not at work (off-duty and on-duty are police terms because they are at work anywhere in their geographic location, security companies have fixed places of employment (sites)...), you are wearing identification that can be used to pin the incident on the company should you ever be required to use that weapon to protect yourself or another. They have liability insurance to cover your doing it on the job, but the insurance won't pay off if its not job related.

    This is also why your supposed to remove your uniform shirt or cover it up when driving to and from work - you are not a walking target and liability magnet for the employer's worker's compensation and liability insurance policies.

    The reality, of course, is that a police officer will most likely not know the law as it applies to security (Few read it), and will just expect you get to carry whenever, wherever. They only care when your causing a problem. Then, its a doubly annoying issue, they have to go and find the law about security open carry and see if your violating it, and if its actually a criminal issue.
    Last edited by N. A. Corbier; 11-13-2005, 03:09 AM.

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  • CAR54
    replied
    Well Uncle Drooly that was dam funny. The sad part is most of it's TRUE!!

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  • S/O245
    replied
    I once knew of a police officer who had a good friend he had known for yrs in the city he was a officer in. He said this subject had got pretty drunk and started alot of trouble with people. a 911 call was made he was first unit to the call. Instead of using hand to hand combatives to fight because the subject was starting to become aggressive he un snaped his pepper spray holder and pulled it out and talked to him and just he said dont make me do this jason he said that 3 times then the subject jason knew that he was about to have some sort of force used against him. Jason decided to calm down and it was over. No one was hurt and the officer issued some a criminal ticket and it was done with.

    The question about a armed s/o carrying off post. I guess if the comp issues the weapon and tells u we dont want you carryin to from home etc. I feel that is a officer is certified to be armed they should be able to carry to and from home in uniform if they want. Also if a Ofc has CCW then they should be able to carry off duty. But again if they issue the weapon then the comp arguement would be thats our property. But if a S/O has his personal weapon I feel they should be able to carry to and from.

    As far as them saying you cant carry when on lunch break etc. If that comp dont provide a lockbox of some sort of a weapon really keeping a gun inside a car is not as safe as they think. I have read many stories of criminals that break into a car and steal a police officers weapons for example they just came from training and they office had them locked up in the car. It happend in Dayton Ohio they not only took 2 smei auto handguns i think the story in the paper said they took a MP5 i belive. So i would say on duty it would be better to let them carry and not leave in the car.

    I once heard about a not so bright police officer from another dept and i wont name the pd LOL. this officer left his/her gun and badge in the trunk of the car over night. Well this officer called to report the gun and badge was stolen. And when our officers and sgt arrived on scene they asked him/her why in the world but used other words did u leave a gun in the trunk. Not something that i would want to do.

    Stay Safe All

    Stay Safe All

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  • CAR54
    replied
    Here's a basic question.

    While taking my exposed weapon training class here in California (security guard) I was told we could ONLY wear the weapon while in uniform and going to or from the site, or to a gun range as long as we're in uniform, and that's it.

    Now the way I understood this was we could NOT wear the weapon if we leave the site to go to lunch, or to run errands on our lunch breaks. But I see armed security guards shopping in 7/11's, banks and diners all the time and they can't all be moonlighting off duty police or working that site.

    If there's no place to leave the weapon on the post and you don't want to leave it in the car how do most armed security officers handle this. What is the general rule here? Will a police officer stop and question an armed security officer if he feels the guard is off site??

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  • Mr. Security
    replied
    Originally posted by AASC Colorado
    I would recommend starting as unarmed, because armed newbies have a tendency not to use thier brains and instincts as much as those who "are defenseless."
    Excellent advice. When you have no choice other than thinking your way out of a situation, you learn valuable skills in managing/diffusing confrontation. One police officer said that because of his small stature, he had to learn how to calm subjects down to minimize the number of occasions were he had to use physical force. He got so good at it that even when an arrest had to be made, the subjects cooperated because they sensed that he treated them with dignity and respect. Won't always work, but it has helped me more than once when I had to deal with a person who manifested an altered mental status. I just let them talk themselves out, listened empathetically, and wished them a good day. They left w/o the situation escalating. We both win when it works out that way.

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  • S/O245
    replied
    As far as carrying a firearm if thats what you want to do you can do it. The 2nd Amendment says so. If you are lawful and non mental etc. Not everyone wants to be armed. Some do. My self I think if your not armed and something happens to where you need a gun all i can say is that the un armed officer should hope that the PO's arrive to them quick enough. Its not about packing a gun. or feeling i dont know that your big or anything. Its just a tool for safety. A tool you need to train on and hope you never use. A tool such as a screw drivier is something you only use when needed. The same with the gun. If you just want to carry to feel big then thats wrong. But if you want to carry for defense thats fine. I sometimes when i carry CCW hate it. It is nothing but a pain in the butt sometimes lol. But if something ever happens and i need it to survive. But again im not saying everyone should be armed. Only those who are trained and want to carry.

    Stay Safe All

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  • davido
    replied
    re

    I you want to be a cop Join the Air Force, They might over look the drug offence, if not, the army is a better chance. That is if you really had your heart set on becoming a cop. your young you have alot of options, if you are looking for excitement, I don't get much here, mall security there are lots of Opportunity's to meet the ladies....

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  • AASC Colorado
    replied
    Somehow the initial issue got lost among active shooter and gangs and bickering. Truth be told, the level and training and certification differs from state to state. The same holds true for LEO (although POST came closer to standardization). In the private sector, training can vary to each company...from none at all to extensive.

    I would not recommend you to security if your worried about carrying a gun or if your going to just be a "wanna-be" cop. There are enough of these already that give the whole industry a bad name and puts LEO's on edge around you. I would recommend starting as unarmed, because armed newbies have a tendency not to use thier brains and instincts as much as those who "are defenseless."

    Do some research among local companies around you.

    And for the record SEO and LEO aren't better or worse than the other, each has thier stengths and weaknesses...depending on the situation.

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  • CAR54
    replied
    Speaking of rough gang infested neighborhoods (which we were around 5 pages back). In the area I work (Inglewood, Ca) there's a number of both Black and Latin gangs operating, though for the most part they're mainly concerned with rival gangs and leave nervous white over-caffeinated security guards alone (that would be me).

    One problem I do have here though is the old ladies in those motorized chairs buzzing up and down the sidewalks in front of my bank, they are really quite a hazard. There's a group of 3 black ladies that I see about once a week all "driving" different types of chairs with names like "little Rascal". Often they'll ride in tandem (side by side) and take up the entire sidewalk, when they do, look out, they really seem to think they OWN the side walk. I've considered confronting them but I have no back up plus it's an unarmed post. Generally I just head back inside the bank when I see them coming.

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  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    I mean no insult, but if you have any doubts about your reaction or timing, please leave an address. The least I can do is send flowers.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

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  • Bill Warnock
    replied
    I mean no insult, but if you have any doubts about your reaction or timing, please leave an address. The least I can do is to send flowers.
    Enjoy the day,
    Bill

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  • S/O245
    replied
    I hope that I never get put in a emergency where I have to make a decision to use force or not. I would hope with the training I have had and will have will help me. I hope my training kicks in when and if I need it. The way iam im big on training and training i can get like i said before even if its training dvds or so you still learn alot.

    Im not Armed Certified by the OPOTC as of yet to be armed on duty. Currently my post contract is un armed anyway. I have CCW. But does any of the Training Academies or Schools teach the students how to keep subjects from taking his or her gun ? I think if not it should be taught. Because if you will be carrying a weapon you need to know how to keep the bad guy from getting it.

    Stay Safe All

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  • N. A. Corbier
    replied
    I look at it like this. If you have a shot, and you can take it, and it will end the encounter - do it. But, if its over your head (And yes, it can be over the head of a police officer, too, your both usually armed with a semi-automatic pistol and 2-4 extra mags.) then do what you can while falling back. Falling back dosen't just mean "run outside screaming gunman gunman gunman!" Providing armed cover for people to evacuate under, if even just a few, is a good use of your weapon. Taking up a static position to protect wounded, or to protect those attempting to move and treat wounded.

    Unforunately, there's one bad thing about this. Your alone. You can cover about, say, 45 degrees of fire accurately without having to reorient your weapon. A wall provides 180 degrees of protection, but there's still 90 you can't see without constantly switching views. In short, it sucks.

    One, awhile back, I had an unarmed probationary officer with me, on an armed site. When we were in the office, trying to do paperwork and eat food, we heard a shotgun go off. Things happened very quickly - my probie was useless in the response - but was able to call the police. At least, he would of been, if he hadn't panicked and called the SHERIFF NON-EMERGENCY LINE programmed into his personal phone.

    From the choke point at the front door, to the laundromat next to the office, to kids running arround the playgronud behind the office, to turning the corner and engaging a kid armed with a shotgun, I was constantly having to check my rear because my I had no cover. I was told that if I hadn't stopped to consistantly check my rear, I'd of gotten killed, as the aggressors were roaming around looking for another kid to kill, and were to the rear of me.

    The only thing I'm thankful for was that there was no fear, the fear happened afterward. I don't know if I could of safely operated in that situation, having to constantly sort threat/non-threat and other data while keeping track of line of sight, cover, and muzzle position.

    The most insane moment of my life was when I rounded the corner, bracketed a kid with a 12 gauge, and shouted commands. Most of those kids liked to believe that a .38 caliber revolver wouldn't hurt them. This one took off running. I was told by some of the resident witnesses that I looked like I was ready to kill him. (Other said I should of, but he wasn't a lethal force threat at the time.)

    Alot of residents were pissed off that it took the police one hour and twelve minutes to get a car out there. Quite frankly, I wasn't pissed at the police - it wasn't in progress, the bad guys had fled the scene, and we didn't find any dead/injured lying in the playground.

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  • S/O245
    replied
    Oh i agree that you need to wait for back up if you can. But also we all know each issue at hand is different always. And if you have to take some sort of action you cant wait. Im saying if u must do something. If you were to hesitate to use the proper force than you may end up dead or having another dead etc.

    Another thing is the following say you must do something you have no other option and you dont others may be able to file a lawsuit against you for not taking the proper action.

    By my other post i dont mean go playing hero and do it all alone etc. I only mean if you must do something.

    Stay Safe All

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