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  • #46
    Originally posted by N. A. Corbier
    I think that sounds about right. Who wants to comment on stop and frisk for LE?
    A frisk is not a search. A LEO may frisk the subject of an investigive stop (Terry V. Ohio). The LEO has to have articulable suspicion (different than PC) to belive the subject could be armed. The LEO may then check the outer areas of clothing for weapons. Any contraband discovered during the frisk is fair game.
    I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
    -Lieutenant Commander Data
    sigpic

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Tennsix
      A frisk is not a search. A LEO may frisk the subject of an investigive stop (Terry V. Ohio). The LEO has to have articulable suspicion (different than PC) to belive the subject could be armed. The LEO may then check the outer areas of clothing for weapons. Any contraband discovered during the frisk is fair game.
      That is very correct...
      "To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill." Sun-Tzu

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Tennsix
        A frisk is not a search. A LEO may frisk the subject of an investigive stop (Terry V. Ohio). The LEO has to have articulable suspicion (different than PC) to belive the subject could be armed. The LEO may then check the outer areas of clothing for weapons. Any contraband discovered during the frisk is fair game.
        Right, its like a protective sweep. Its a protective measure, not a search. I know that alot people confuse the two, and figured someone would bring it up.
        Some Kind of Commando Leader

        "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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        • #49
          Most S/O's dont get alot of training. I think that its getting better after 9/11 but still S/O's need more training. The best thing i can say to fellow S/O's is get training your self. Even if its just buying a Training DVD or VHS that can help. I just recently got a training tape sent to me called Ultimate Officer Survival its for Law Enforcement & Security Personnel. Other training such as CPR pay for it your self even if your agency dont train you in it. If you want to be a better S/O and more safe than sometimes you have to get extra training on your own. Sadly alot of Security companies dont have us in thier best interests. Take defense tactics training or buy defense tactics training dvd. If your armed or not defense tactics can help save your life.

          As far as the statement about a S/O being arrested because they have a active shooter emergency. Yes you are correct you can be arrested if they want. But thats not saying that they are right. For CCW Permit holders i heard 95 % of the time or so you will be cuffed after a shooting. They have to investigate etc. But the FED Law and Constitution gives us the right to defend our self. So if in the emergency you have to defend others or your self and use deadly force then so be it. Thats what the 2nd amendment is for. I just hope that none of us on this board ever has to use deadly force in our lifetime. Each emergency is different and has to be handled different. Your number one defense tool is ? Your brain. Train the best you can think and use what ever force is needed if any. Another thing is if you carry any type of weapon remember that it can also be used against you. So do some tactics training to keep a subject from getting your gun baton etc.

          Stay Safe

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          • #50
            Originally posted by The_Mayor
            I have never proclaimed to be an "expert on security".....
            And your numerous posts prove this fact beyond a reasonable doubt.

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            • #51
              Most S/O's dont get alot of training. I think that its getting better after 9/11 but still S/O's need more training. The best thing i can say to fellow S/O's is get training your self. Even if its just buying a Training DVD or VHS that can help. I just recently got a training tape sent to me called Ultimate Officer Survival its for Law Enforcement & Security Personnel. Other training such as CPR pay for it your self even if your agency dont train you in it. If you want to be a better S/O and more safe than sometimes you have to get extra training on your own. Sadly alot of Security companies dont have us in thier best interests. Take defense tactics training or buy defense tactics training dvd. If your armed or not defense tactics can help save your life.

              As far as the statement about a S/O being arrested because they have a active shooter emergency. Yes you are correct you can be arrested if they want. But thats not saying that they are right. For CCW Permit holders i heard 95 % of the time or so you will be cuffed after a shooting. They have to investigate etc. But the FED Law and Constitution gives us the right to defend our self. So if in the emergency you have to defend others or your self and use deadly force then so be it. Thats what the 2nd amendment is for. I just hope that none of us on this board ever has to use deadly force in our lifetime. Each emergency is different and has to be handled different. Your number one defense tool is ? Your brain. Train the best you can think and use what ever force is needed if any. Another thing is if you carry any type of weapon remember that it can also be used against you. So do some tactics training to keep a subject from getting your gun baton etc.

              Stay Safe
              And you risk being hit by friendly fire if you go in before the police get there. In an active shooter scenerio, LEO's mission is to actively hunt down and take out (kill) the bad guy(s). If th police do not know you are in there and they see a person with a gun, it could end very badly.
              I believe I speak for everyone here sir, when I say, to Hell with our orders.
              -Lieutenant Commander Data
              sigpic

              Comment


              • #52
                It is suicide to respond to an active shooter scenerio without the tools and training that goes into the response. For LE, Security, or Military. If your client requires active shooter response in their contract, then the company needs to look long and hard at proper training.

                Critical Intervention Services of Clearwater, Florida, provides Active Shooter Response as part of its Anti-Terrorism Officer program at Tampa Energy Company's Power Plant. They are all armed with pistols and M4 rifles. They are trained to military standards, by contracted trainers, in force protection, active shooter response, and anti-terrorism operations.

                The police KNOW that CIS is there, with more firepower than they will initially bring, and they know what CIS looks like. (Believe me, they know.) They know also until they setup and take over, the port security plan states that the utility security force is actively running the show and protecting the facility from the advisary force. You don't mount up and go in without thinking, because you'll probally end up in a running fire fight with the bad guys AND the heavily armed and armored security force.

                Now, lets take the other road, a lone security officer with a handgun rushing in to an active shooter area, not telling anyone, trying to take the bad guy down. Without coordination with others, the police have no idea there's a good guy in there.

                Like anything else, active shooter response needs coordinated. In the initial moments of a shooting situation, a security team which is properly trained and outfitted can move in and take out the bad guy before more lives are lost while the police arrive, setup, contain, and then move in. This is what the client is afraid of, and paying for - immediate response by the on-scene force to a shooting. Taking the bad guy down/out without having to wait for police response.

                If the police know that there's a trained security force running around in there, they are equipped, and in contact with a command point, they know they have options. If the BG is neutralized, they can order the team to pull out. If it isn't, they can give intelligence while falling back to be replaced by SWAT. If they're static and protecting downed people, then they can provide casuality information, intelligence, and hold their position till SWAT makes entry and evacs casualties, then the security team can fall back or hold position.

                It all depends on training, coordination, tactics, and trust. I've known individual police officers who would cancel backup because I was there already. Once the security force has proven to the police that they're trustworthy, cooperation starts.
                Some Kind of Commando Leader

                "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

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                • #53
                  Oh i agree that you need to wait for back up if you can. But also we all know each issue at hand is different always. And if you have to take some sort of action you cant wait. Im saying if u must do something. If you were to hesitate to use the proper force than you may end up dead or having another dead etc.

                  Another thing is the following say you must do something you have no other option and you dont others may be able to file a lawsuit against you for not taking the proper action.

                  By my other post i dont mean go playing hero and do it all alone etc. I only mean if you must do something.

                  Stay Safe All

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                  • #54
                    I look at it like this. If you have a shot, and you can take it, and it will end the encounter - do it. But, if its over your head (And yes, it can be over the head of a police officer, too, your both usually armed with a semi-automatic pistol and 2-4 extra mags.) then do what you can while falling back. Falling back dosen't just mean "run outside screaming gunman gunman gunman!" Providing armed cover for people to evacuate under, if even just a few, is a good use of your weapon. Taking up a static position to protect wounded, or to protect those attempting to move and treat wounded.

                    Unforunately, there's one bad thing about this. Your alone. You can cover about, say, 45 degrees of fire accurately without having to reorient your weapon. A wall provides 180 degrees of protection, but there's still 90 you can't see without constantly switching views. In short, it sucks.

                    One, awhile back, I had an unarmed probationary officer with me, on an armed site. When we were in the office, trying to do paperwork and eat food, we heard a shotgun go off. Things happened very quickly - my probie was useless in the response - but was able to call the police. At least, he would of been, if he hadn't panicked and called the SHERIFF NON-EMERGENCY LINE programmed into his personal phone.

                    From the choke point at the front door, to the laundromat next to the office, to kids running arround the playgronud behind the office, to turning the corner and engaging a kid armed with a shotgun, I was constantly having to check my rear because my I had no cover. I was told that if I hadn't stopped to consistantly check my rear, I'd of gotten killed, as the aggressors were roaming around looking for another kid to kill, and were to the rear of me.

                    The only thing I'm thankful for was that there was no fear, the fear happened afterward. I don't know if I could of safely operated in that situation, having to constantly sort threat/non-threat and other data while keeping track of line of sight, cover, and muzzle position.

                    The most insane moment of my life was when I rounded the corner, bracketed a kid with a 12 gauge, and shouted commands. Most of those kids liked to believe that a .38 caliber revolver wouldn't hurt them. This one took off running. I was told by some of the resident witnesses that I looked like I was ready to kill him. (Other said I should of, but he wasn't a lethal force threat at the time.)

                    Alot of residents were pissed off that it took the police one hour and twelve minutes to get a car out there. Quite frankly, I wasn't pissed at the police - it wasn't in progress, the bad guys had fled the scene, and we didn't find any dead/injured lying in the playground.
                    Some Kind of Commando Leader

                    "Every time I see another crazy Florida post, I'm glad I don't work there." ~ Minneapolis Security on Florida Security Law

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      I hope that I never get put in a emergency where I have to make a decision to use force or not. I would hope with the training I have had and will have will help me. I hope my training kicks in when and if I need it. The way iam im big on training and training i can get like i said before even if its training dvds or so you still learn alot.

                      Im not Armed Certified by the OPOTC as of yet to be armed on duty. Currently my post contract is un armed anyway. I have CCW. But does any of the Training Academies or Schools teach the students how to keep subjects from taking his or her gun ? I think if not it should be taught. Because if you will be carrying a weapon you need to know how to keep the bad guy from getting it.

                      Stay Safe All

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                      • #56
                        I mean no insult, but if you have any doubts about your reaction or timing, please leave an address. The least I can do is to send flowers.
                        Enjoy the day,
                        Bill

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                        • #57
                          I mean no insult, but if you have any doubts about your reaction or timing, please leave an address. The least I can do is send flowers.
                          Enjoy the day,
                          Bill

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                          • #58
                            Speaking of rough gang infested neighborhoods (which we were around 5 pages back). In the area I work (Inglewood, Ca) there's a number of both Black and Latin gangs operating, though for the most part they're mainly concerned with rival gangs and leave nervous white over-caffeinated security guards alone (that would be me).

                            One problem I do have here though is the old ladies in those motorized chairs buzzing up and down the sidewalks in front of my bank, they are really quite a hazard. There's a group of 3 black ladies that I see about once a week all "driving" different types of chairs with names like "little Rascal". Often they'll ride in tandem (side by side) and take up the entire sidewalk, when they do, look out, they really seem to think they OWN the side walk. I've considered confronting them but I have no back up plus it's an unarmed post. Generally I just head back inside the bank when I see them coming.

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                            • #59
                              Somehow the initial issue got lost among active shooter and gangs and bickering. Truth be told, the level and training and certification differs from state to state. The same holds true for LEO (although POST came closer to standardization). In the private sector, training can vary to each company...from none at all to extensive.

                              I would not recommend you to security if your worried about carrying a gun or if your going to just be a "wanna-be" cop. There are enough of these already that give the whole industry a bad name and puts LEO's on edge around you. I would recommend starting as unarmed, because armed newbies have a tendency not to use thier brains and instincts as much as those who "are defenseless."

                              Do some research among local companies around you.

                              And for the record SEO and LEO aren't better or worse than the other, each has thier stengths and weaknesses...depending on the situation.

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                              • #60
                                re

                                I you want to be a cop Join the Air Force, They might over look the drug offence, if not, the army is a better chance. That is if you really had your heart set on becoming a cop. your young you have alot of options, if you are looking for excitement, I don't get much here, mall security there are lots of Opportunity's to meet the ladies....

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